AFC - 4 November 1918

On 4 November 1918, 4 squadron Australian Flying Corps seems to have run into a bit of bother. I cannot now recall exact details but I believe the squadron lost five or more pilots, including Arthur Palliser with 7 kills, in one brief dogfight. I have read the Official History account of this flight.Can any one tell me more?

As I recall, 4AFC ran into Jasta Boelke twice in the afternoon of the 4 November, and Karl Bolle got his last 4 victories (33-36), and Ernst Bormann his 16th and last. He timed his claim at 1320, Bolle's are recorded only as 'pm' (at least in The Jasta War Chronology. Of the 5 Snipes lost, the pilots of three were killed, and two were taken prisoner.

I hope this helps.

Tony Johnston

[Reinout]

Hi Peter,

The incident involved Jasta Boelcke if I recall correctly with Staffelführer Karl Bolle gaining his final victories. I'm not sure anymore (this incident is recorded in "Who downed the aces in WWI?" by N.Franks) but I think Bolle scored four official victories in that fight.

Probably the last great achievement for the Luftstreitkräfte in WWI as bad weather hampered flying throughout much of the remaining days of the war.

Kind regards,

Reinout

[Reinout]

Aargh! Tony beat me to it by 6 minutes!

Kind regards,

Reinout

Thank you Tony and Reinout. How highly should Jasta Boelke be rated. I have looked at the records of 4 AFC and they were an above average outfit but got well hammered here.Any idea of numbers or tactical situation? Any losses to the other side?

I have been studying this particular period and can tell you a bit of what happened.

In the morning, at 09:00 a patrol consisting of** Lt. E A Cato (E8074),** Lt. A G Packer (E8056), Lt. E J Goodson (E8072) and Lt. C W Rhodes (E8073) left the aerodrome.** At about 10:15 they sighted 7 Fokker Biplanes N.E. of Tournai at 18,000ft and engaged them. 1 Fokker Biplane was driven down out of control by Lt. Cato but Rhodes and Goodson did not return.

Goodson was forced down in combat (probably by Bolle) and captured.** Likewise Rhodes was hit by AA, forced to land and captured.** Both pilots returned after the Armistice.

At about 11:40 a large offensive patrol of 15 Snipes left the base and at about 13:15 15 Enemy Scouts were seen in Buissenal-Leuze at 9,000ft. 1 Fokker Biplane was destroyed in flames by Capt. R King (E8050). 1 Fokker Biplane destroyed in flames by Capt. G Jones (E8052). Another Fokker Biplane was claimed driven down out of control by Capt. King and a Fokker Biplane was driven down out of control by 2/Lt. Wilkinson (E8088). The fight was fierce and intense and when action was broken off 3 Australian aircraft were missing.** The casualties were;

Capt Thomas Charles Richmond Baker MM (E8062), a newly promoted flight commander with 12 victories in Camels and Snipes.** (He was also gazetted with a DFC in Jan 1919)

2/Lt. A J Palliser (E8064), a 7 victory ace (see the Australian Aces list on the site or Cam's AFC site, for Baker and Palliser) and

2/Lt. P W Symons (E8038), a well respected pilot who had joined the squadron on 22 August 1918 at the same time as Palliser.

Of these 3 men Karle Bolle claimed 2 and Ernst Bormann 1.

This was 4AFC's last fight of the war.** They flew offensive patrols right up to 11 November but didn't have anymore contact with the GAF.

I'm not exactly sure but I think these 5 losses were all from 'B' Flight (someone please confirm).

I hope that is of some assistance.

[Reinout]

How well JB should be rated?

Well, in terms of victories, only Jasta 11 scored more for the German air service. J11 got 350 confirmed victories while JB racked up an impressive total of 336. And while 1917 was a difficult time for JB, things picked up with the arrival of the new leader, Karl Bolle early 1918 (Feb) who led it of course until the end. In my view, JB was one of the finest units overall of the war and its rating in 1918 certainly was elite, just like it was in 1916.

This incident just goes to show you that the German air service was nothing to be discounted in the final weeks of the war. When handled properly (as the JB boys could) any German fighter could produce such a result. Of course, the same holds true for the Allies, there are quite possibly examples of Allied formations inflicting similar damage on German units.

P.S.: being a crack unit doesn't really matter that much when you're bounced.

Kind regards,

Reinout

[Vin]

In the afternoon raid, 4AFC were escorting 2AFC and RAF DH 9's to bomb the aerodrome at Chapelle-a-Wattines and to harrass the German Army. 2AFC, flying SE 5A's seemed to fare better, shooting down 5 Fokkers - 2 by Davies, and 1 each by Blaxland, Stone & Somonson. Anyone know which crowd these Fokkers were from ?


Vin

[rammjaeger]

Only one loss of Jasta B known for this day: Vfw Paul Keusen killed in action near Monbray.

Originally Posted by Reinout

P.S.: being a crack unit doesn't really matter that much when you're bounced.

It reads like a classic dogfight with both opponents fully aware they are about to tangle. 4 AFC had been escorting DH9's across the lines after a bombing trip, 4 AFC turned back to take on the Fokkers that were following them. The Fokkers were Jasta 2.

From the Official History; "King, leading the Snipes, escorted the bombers back across the lines and then, seeing twelve Fokkers following his formation, turned back, climbed, and dived on the enemy's leader. he fired 150 rounds into this machine, which stalled, fell on it's side, and dropped earthward on it's back. A general scrimmage ensued. King fastened onto another Fokker, which was shooting on the tail of a Snipe, and sent it down in flames after four rapid bursts of fire at 100-feet range. G.Jones attacked the rearmost German of the formation overran it during his opening fussilade, and sped onto another which was attacking H.A. Wilkinson. This Fokker also fell inflames. Wilkinson, delivered from it, dropped with a quick turn on two more Fokkers behind and below him, fired a close range burst into the hearest one, and saw it fall out of control. ...... The fight lasted but two or three minutes, and died out in the usual way, with machines spread out over a wide area and making to regain formation."

It recounts how the three pilots, Baker, Palliser and Symons were missing. If you take out Bolle and King, not much happened in the way of victories and losses. I think it is like most combats of WWI, if an ace wasnt involved there was little in the way of losses or victories.

The fight is particurely interesting as it represents one of the best if not the best entente squadron at the time in the best British Engineering had to offer against one of the best Central Powers Jasta's if not the best Jasta, in the best German Engineering had to offer. Take out Bolle and King and it was pretty even. It seems throughout the whole war, scoring and in particular regular scoring was concentrated among very few pilots.

It would be interesting to know what height the fight took place at and if Jasta II had the high powered BMW engines in their DVII's.

Bolle gave the Aussies a pretty bad licking that day. btw if anyone wanders across a picture of Kings Snipe, I would be interested in knowing about it.

One of the Snipes Capt T.C.R. Baker scored a victory in. But not the one he was shot down in. Couldnt resist, beautiful aircraft that it is.


cam