10o years ago today - 8 February 1917

[Graeme]

8 FEBRUARY 1917

Artillery Co-operation — 71 targets were dealt with by aeroplane observation.

Hostile Aircraft —

Lt G F Haesler, 40 Sqn, Albatros C crashed south of Lens at 15:30/16:30 - drove down an Albatros two-seater. This machine landed in a field and turned on its back after landing; Burgaller (Ok) & Wanecke (Ok), FAA235, forced to land

Casualty — Lt W H K Copeland (Wia) + ? (Ok), 4 Sqn, BE2e

Graeme

[MASTIFF]

From JWC:

Claims:

Vfw Rieger, Js17, DD*, Pont-a-Mousson, zlg**

* DD ... a fuselaged biplane, type unknown, but not a pusher.
** zlg ... zur landung gezwungen ... forced to land Allied side.


Losses:

Ltn Alfred Trager, Js8, 2 victories, severely wounded in combat.

Vfw Konrad Hess, Js1, killed during test flight, Golancourt.


Cheers,
Tony

[R Gannon]

As Graeme notes Haelsler downed the said FAA 235 machine. The narrative of his CR can be seen in the FAA 235 thread.

The important point here is that one will not find any admittance to this downing in the contemporary Kofl returns and by association the likes of COTGAS. But the fine FAA 235 history produced by Mertens post WW1 provides the much fuller picture of the units casualties. We see a similar state of affairs with the FAA 211 history and the three authentic Jasta KTB's (Js 24, Js 35 & MFJ I). Clearly the official German line was only to admit machines lost over the lines or totally destroyed (100%), along with personnel casualties. But in no way can this assemblage be presented as the full picture of German combat downings'.

Now admittedly the FAA 235 history only concedes an FTL with fuel tanks & wings shot through, whilst the Haesler CR provides the additional info that the machine turned over on its back. Clearly the machine was not a total loss, neither were either crewman wounded or injured, but the bottom line is that a German machine was shot down and these sort of downing's, and there were clearly many, many hundreds of like downing's, cannot be brushed under the carpet, as some have tried to do with glib gerrymanders that they; were neither a loss to the Germans, or a victory to the Allies!:rolleyes

My main point being that just because in the present wisdom there is no known German loss in relation to great numbers of Allied claims, it does not automatically mean that no German machines were downed.

Cheers Russ

[MASTIFF]

Originally Posted by R Gannon

My main point being that just because in the present wisdom there is no known German loss in relation to great numbers of Allied claims, it does not automatically mean that no German machines were downed.

Cheers Russ

May I remind you of this when we get to 2 June ?

[R Gannon]

I have an RNAS claim by FSL FW Norton of 6 Naval for a 2-seater OOC over Houlthoust. I'm wonder if it has anything to do with an FA 19 loss - Vfw Jasschinski & Ltn Ziemke both KIA Dixmude apparently came down in front lines. There is of course the Belgian Esc 9 claim of Lt Oieslangers for a 2-seat FTL (location?) - a machine apparently recovered by the Germans - but again was this a case of more than one player?

I don't buy the JWC assertion of Js 8's Ltn Traeger being wia - it is not reflected in Kofl 4. Suspect cross wires with his 8 Apr 17 wounding.

FAA 235 also records wounding of Ltn Timm in an airfight. This might reflect a claim by 13 Sqn crew of Lt WN Trollope & 1AM Lamb who ventured to attack what they thought was a Haberstadter scout crossing the lines under AA fire near Thelus at 1045 - observer fired off a double drum of Lewis and HA dived away steeply. The fact that HA had been over the front line on its own, suggests it was not a Jasta machine.

Cheers Russ

[R Gannon]

Originally Posted by MASTIFF

May I remind you of this when we get to 2 June ?

Mate you were quick on that one. I had you in mind penning that post. I could add - Allied claims need to be treated on their merits.

Cheers Russ

[Barry Hickson]

Originally Posted by R Gannon

As Graeme notes Haelsler downed the said FAA 235 machine. The narrative of his CR can be seen in the FAA 235 thread.

The important point here is that one will not find any admittance to this downing in the contemporary Kofl returns and by association the likes of COTGAS. But the fine FAA 235 history produced by Mertens post WW1 provides the much fuller picture of the units casualties. We see a similar state of affairs with the FAA 211 history and the three authentic Jasta KTB's (Js 24, Js 35 & MFJ I). Clearly the official German line was only to admit machines lost over the lines or totally destroyed (100%), along with personnel casualties. But in no way can this assemblage be presented as the full picture of German combat downings'.

Now admittedly the FAA 235 history only concedes an FTL with fuel tanks & wings shot through, whilst the Haesler CR provides the additional info that the machine turned over on its back. Clearly the machine was not a total loss, neither were either crewman wounded or injured, but the bottom line is that a German machine was shot down and these sort of downing's, and there were clearly many, many hundreds of like downing's, cannot be brushed under the carpet, as some have tried to do with glib gerrymanders that they; were neither a loss to the Germans, or a victory to the Allies!:rolleyes

My main point being that just because in the present wisdom there is no known German loss in relation to great numbers of Allied claims, it does not automatically mean that no German machines were downed.

Cheers Russ

I just wish some people will read this & realise it is only the "Tip of the Iceberg" for German Aircraft shot down but not totally lost & crew not seriously injured.

[Graeme]

Not sure how the Norton claim slipped through the net - it's clearly shown in my claims database as an Aviatik C out of control smoking over Houthulst Forest while flying Nieuport 17 N3184. I, too, have Ltn Erich Ziemke (Kia) & Vzfw Jaschinski (Wia, Dow), FA19 noted as a potential match.

This was the first of eight decisive claims Norton would make with 6 Sqn RNAS and only his second overall. He had previously served in No 1 Naval Wing and on 23 January 1916 had dropped a 16-lb bomb on a U-boat some 10 or 12 miles west of Ostend. His first victory had been a balloon sent down in flames on 20 October 1916 using Le Prieur rockets.

Norton remained in the RAF, retiring in 1944 with the rank of Air Commodore; he died in 1966, aged 73.

Graeme