udet's sswdiii red wings?

[albatros1234]

i just came across on a build profile that the lozenge on udet's sswdiii had red overpainting over the lozenge fabric. this is the first i'd heard of it and every other one i've ever seen has the lozenge. so whats the deal and what is the proof either way?

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hi Albatros1234:
Look at all the photographs, they show the wings are painted. My rendition in in my Gallery, click on it below my Avatar, and then scan at look for it it is among the 20 twenty illustrations.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[albatros1234]

wow thanks dan san, nice profiles. by the look of the top wing theres some diagonal lines is this to show that the lozenge should be slightly visible through the red paint? also i liked your painting " which one?" is that oil on canvas?

My view is this. After consultation with known authorities, and my own research, I believe the wings on Udet's SSW were in fact red.
My own deductive, extrapolary reasoning tells me this: Since previous a/c flown by Udet had extensive overpainting of factory finishes, and given his high status, it is reasonable to assume that the wings were red.
That is my view and I'm never wrong...well, I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

[Gregvan]

Hmmm....

Sorry to resurrect this old chestnut again. However, I'm not so sure the wings were red. There are quite a few photos of this SSW taken at Metz Frescaty airfield, both with and without Udet. It seems they had a "photo day" - it wouldn't surprise me if all the photos were taken on the same day - but I could be wrong.

This isn't the bst print, but that bottom wing doesn't necessarily look like a single solid color to me.


This is also Udet's SSW at Metz Frescaty, October 1918. It doesn't seem as if he ever bothered to paint the "LO!" on the port side of the aircraft. None of the photos show it on the port side. If he didn't bother to paint "LO!" on the port side, would they have gone to the trouble to paint the upper surface of the wings red? Just asking...

[Gregvan]

I wish this photo was better. I saved this from an ebay auction - but I was outbid in attempting to buy the photo. Once again, we see a grinning Udet seated astride his SSW at Metz-Frescaty in October 1918. Sadly, there is a lot of silvering and glare on the left side of the photo. However, the lower right wing is pretty clear. Take a GOOD look at that lower wing, especially the aileron.


It certainly looks like there are some camouflage polygons visible on that lower wing aileron to me. Printed camouflage fabric isn't always easy to discern, even on the best of photos. This seems esepcially true of SSW D.III and D.IV types for some reason. Just my opinion...If Dan-San or anyone has some photos that clearly show the top surface of the upper wing of this aircraft, I hope they post them.

I think that BECAUSE it's so hard to confirm lozenges makes a good case for overpainting. This would result, as known to be the case on other aircraft, in a faint image of polygons showing through.

Furthermore, the ebay image shows the LO! absent from the starboard side. This likely means that the emblem was painted on both sides, after this shot was taken. All of Udet's other marked a/c had the image on both sides.

Also, because of the late date of manufacture of the SSW, Udet probably had the lion's share of photo ops, him being the highest scoring ace still living, and a nat'l hero.

[Gregvan]

OK, Modelguy. If you can find a photo of this SSW with "LO!" painted on the left/port side, I'd love to see it.

Just for everyone's information, here's a splendid view of Udet posing with his SSW, courtesy of Reinhard Zankl.


Same day, same place (note the hangar in the background) Udet also posed with the SSW sans flights togs.


Udet once again, this time with Ingenieur Kaendler of the Siemens Works in the center, in civilian clothes. No doubt Kaendler was there to take advantage of the publicity opportunities offered by Udet's ownership of a "private" SSW fighter.


We really don't know very much about Udet's combat use of this unique SSW fighter. We do know that on 6 October 1918, Friedrich Noltenius of Jasta 6 wrote that, during their stay at Metz-Frescaty, "...I had a little mock fight with Udet who flew the Siemens D.III with the powerful Remag (sic) engine, Udet had brought with him upon returning from leave after being wounded in September. It was impossible to match the performance of this combination." Noltenius meant that the SSW had a Siemens-Halske Sh.IIIa license-built by Rhemag. Research by Dick Bennett has indicated that Udet's SSW D.III was therefore most likely D.8350/17.

So, there's absolutely no doubt that Udet was a superb pilot and he could really have put the SSW to good use. But how much opportunity did he fly it in combat? I don't know. According to Udet's biographer, Armand van Ishoven, Udet returned from the hospital on 3 October. "On 9 October the Geschwader moved base to Marville, 32 km north of Verdun, but Udet's days as a fighter pilot were over. Two days later he was officially transferred to the post of Inspector of the Flying Corps (i.e., posted to Idflieg) and assigned to Flieger Ersatz Abteilung 3 - a reserve unit at Gotha. In this capacity, from 15 to 18 October,he was ordered to visit the Rhemag-Remania engine factory, which was building the Siemens Sh IIIa rotary engine under license...His next job was to attend the third and final fighter evaluation trials as Berlin's Adlershof."

So, Udet and his SSW were with the Geschwader for about a week - a time during which there were some combat flights, but also during which poor weather curtailed a good deal of flying. Udet had time to get the fuselage of his SSW painted red, and to put "LO!" on one side for photo ops. But, that's just my opinion.

[Gregvan]

Again, just FYI. Here's Udet in his SSW D.III at Metz. He signed this print (the signature is genuine) and dated it October 1918. No "LO!" on the port side.

[mgtaylor]

I would agree like many war time front line german fighter with personal markings This plane certainly as documented so well by Greg went thru an evolution of markings. Like tatoo-ing one is never enough and often not all completed in one sitting.

ALhtough I definately Have to agree with Greg his photos defentialy show what was probably Day-Dark 5 color Loz as Dan San has idenitfied with this series. IF it was over painted with a Red Wash and some faint loz showing thru at again a later date ? IF some say so ?

I think what is safe to say is due to the progession of accumlitive markings I'd have to say you'd be safe choosing either :

1. No "lo !" 's

2. one "lo ! " on the Right side only

3. Both "lo !" 's

4. Red with Day-Dark Loz wings with loz rib tapes

5. All over Red with Red Washed over Lozed Wings.

What ever your perfereance it appears there was a day the aircraft appeared that way.

My Personal belief as Udet survived the War as a celebrated hero and began an inter-war career as a Demostration (Arcobatic) Pilot. I think the wings would have been Loz during the Plane's very Short Combat career and possible like the Red/White & Blue painted American SPAD's in 1919 the wings of this plane may have been painted ALL red Later Shortly After or very near the end of hostilies ?

But scott a seach of the Colors and Marking FOrum on this subject and you will find quite a few referneces and discussions that go way back as well as many of Dan-San's comments.

yours mike