MvR at Verdun, '16: type of gun?

dglewwe · 25 February 2010, 07:23 AM

Does anyone have information (or a guess) regarding the type of MG Richthofen had mounted to the wing of the two-seater he piloted? I would guess a parabellum, though an old paperback bio I have mentions a hotchkiss?

dglewwe · 26 February 2010, 07:45 AM

As odd as the idea of using a (presumably captured?) Hotchkiss struck me -if for no other reason than ammunition supply- the idea of a parabellum mounted on the upper wing with a 250-round spool sounds even crazier.

Is this story (MvR having/using such a weapon) just that -a story?

Epee · 26 February 2010, 10:27 AM

MvR claimed to have shot down a Neiuport with this arrangement. While not credited with a victory the incident was mentioned in a dispatch.

MvR mentioned that his rigged up MG drew some disapproval from fellow pilots.

There is some debate as to what kind of aircraft MvR flew with this; an Alb CIII or a Roland CII.

I suppose we should not discount the idea that he may have used a captured Lewis gun. He did mention that he rigged the MG up, "like they do in the French Neiuport". I realize that this might be stretching a point but while the gun and ammo would have been even scarcer around Verdun if taken from a Neiuport then the mount would also be available and perhaps the unavailibility of ammo might have resulted in a 2nd Lt. gaining personal use of it.

Certainly a Hochkiss would seem less cumbersome than a Parabellum. However the Parabellum's ammo spool, while clumsy, would answer the problem of how to attach the ammo supply.

'14-'18aviationcollector · 26 February 2010, 10:33 AM

Hi,

I have a very nice photograph showing a captured Lewis gun mounted to a Rumpler flown by Ltn Oskar Seitz. In this case it is mounted as a pair with a Parabellum, and it demonstrates that captured allied machine guns were used on German aeroplanes.

Regards,

David.

Ransom E. Olds · 26 February 2010, 10:47 AM

Woodman's Early Aircraft Armament illustrates some of the weird and wonderful attempts made to arm airplanes in the early days of the war. The advantage of any belt-fed gun over the Hotchkiss is that at least you could fire a good number of shots before having to service the gun 'way up there. With the Hotchkiss--assuming it a French gun--after every 24 shots fired someone would have to scamper up there and insert a new feed strip. It certainly doesn't appeal to me! Ransom

dglewwe · 26 February 2010, 10:51 AM

"...a captured Lewis gun..."

Great -now I have three choices I'm not sure of!

Where to get it aside, the limited ammo-supply (as in per clip or drum) of a Hotchkiss or Lewis would certainly restrict how much fire could be put out with such a mounting --I assume (dangerous, I know!) that reloading was out of the question?

edit: R.O.'s quicker fingers beat me to it!

PS- my interest in this stems from a game I'll be running next month (part of a day-long series tapping into MvR's career in March '16, '17, and '18), so -while the value may not be as esoteric as some of the queries/discussions here- the result will have some practical application...even if only to influence someone rolling dice...

dglewwe · 1 March 2010, 06:01 AM

Time, I guess to put this to rest.

From a gaming standpoint the issue is with the ammunition supply (per clip/drum/spool), so the big difference lies in whether it was a captured weapon (Lewis or Hotchkiss) or a Parabellum.

While the availability of the German gun (and more importantly: ammunition)makes it the more likely choice, I still have reservations about the bulky/heavy spool up there on the top wing. Dunno.

Thanks to those who've weighed in so far. Additional armchair ruminations, opinions, and/or wild guesses are very welcome -like I said: this is for a game, so historical accuracy is not critical --still...I'd like to take a stab at getting as close as possible.

Ransom E. Olds · 1 March 2010, 08:36 AM

As far as mounting a belt-fed gun over the top wing is concerned the Austrians did it as a standard practice for a good while before they got synchronization of the Schwarzlose sorted out. Ransom

Epee · 1 March 2010, 08:38 AM

I just had a wild thought! As discussed before the most probable arcraft for this shootdown was the Roland as it was fast enough to catch a Neiuport scout.

I have heard that the Roland offered it's observer a 360 degree field of fire; the rear gun could fire ahead over the prop since the upper wing was cockpit height.

MvR went hunting alone in whatever two-seater he used otherwise he would have had a witness to his claim.

Therefore the easiest solution for MvR would have been to somehow prop the rear gun of the Roland so that it was locked pointing forward over his head and used a readily available cable release to fire it.

dglewwe · 1 March 2010, 09:23 AM

"As far as mounting a belt-fed gun over the top wing is concerned..."

Thank You, Ransom! That info makes me lean more towards a Parabellum.

"...the most probable arcraft for this shootdown was the Roland..."

Hmm...the three mentions I have of this (Richthofen The Red Baron -Schurmacher, The Red Knight of Germany - Gibbons, and The Fighters - Funderburk ...not the best, perhaps, but all I have in my meager library

) state that he flew an Albatros C-III in K.G.2.

I could substitute a Roland if necessary...but I'd hate to not use the Albatros I had to scratch/kitbash together for the game!