The Red Baron's Fokker Dr.I colour scheme

knightofdeath · 4 December 2009, 04:55 AM

To the layman it would sound like an obvious question with an obvious answer, but I hear that it's not so...

What are the correct colours (and scheme) for Fokker Dr.I 425/17 flown by, The Red Baron himself, Manfred von Richthofen?

I heard on a certain website that the colours shown in the Revell 1/72 release are inaccurate, and that the plane shouldn't be all over red. Please could someone enlighten me, or direct me to a good source of information regarding this subject?

Thanks in advance!

p.s I've got several kits in progress right now, and hope to post some piccies up one I have finished products.

'14-'18aviationcollector · 4 December 2009, 06:12 AM

Hi,

Fokker Dr.1 425 / '17 is a reasonably easy aeroplane to determine the colour scheme for. There are very many pieces of it still existing, including all of the crosses for example. I have seen many other pieces of this aeroplane, and it was all red. Some of his other aeroplanes may not have been all red, and there seems to be some debate and uncertainty about some of his other aeroplanes but 425 / '17 was all red. It seems to have been doped in two distinctly different shades of "sky blue", over which the red was painted, and the upper surface has very little evidence of ever having been streaked. There is what appears to be a very faint streaked pattern on the top surface, and there are two theories I have heard about this. One is that it might have been the standard Fokker streaky green which was applied in order to allow the aeroplane to be passed for inspection, and which was subsequently removed, and the other is that it was streaked very lightly, again in order to allow it to be approved, and then immediately painted red all over. The first shade of sky blue on the underside may have been coloured dope, which could explain why there are two shades of "sky blue", but then it could be argued that the same light blue dope could have been applied to the upper surface as well as the underside. 425 / '17 is still a bit of a mystery aeroplane, but it was definitely painted or doped red all over. I hope this helps, and does not add to the confusion!

Regards,

David.

Fokker Ace · 4 December 2009, 08:27 AM

Remember though the rudder of 425/17 was white in it's very final stage before being shot down in April. This occured when the style of the crosses were changed and over-painted.

And unlike I've seen in too many models - plastic and RC - the cowling was not white on this mcahine.

knightofdeath · 4 December 2009, 11:17 AM

Thanks '14-'18aviationcollector and Fokker Ace! The information you've given is very helpful! So the best way to go about painting this aircraft with the decals supplied in the Revell kit (Iron Cross as opposed to Balkenkreuz) would be to paint it all over bright red (including the tail?)? Given that it's a 1/72 scale kit, I would think it might be over kill to paint it in the streaked dope etc first.

Cheers!

StephenLawson · 4 December 2009, 12:31 PM

I have seen that tattoo before. And the final finish of Dr.I 425/17 was all red ("indian lake red" according to Ray Rimell) except for a white rudder. "Drome" Member LaserLloyd has a good take on this subject.

knightofdeath · 4 December 2009, 02:02 PM

Tattoo? I will check out LaserLloyd's take on the scheme if I can track it down on here. Cheers!

Mode One · 10 December 2009, 03:55 AM

In the Squadron Signals book on the Fokker Dr1, on page 19, is a supposed photo of 425/17 from the front that shows a difference of color in the undersides of the wing, stating it to likely be Sky Blue. However, other then the author's opinion that the photo is of 425/17, this can't be confirmed. In this photo, the aircraft still has the Iron Crosses, the cowling is white or natural metal, shows the cross on the rudder to be white bordered; but, the rudder background is dark. Therefore the photo would have been taken previously to the modification of the Iron Crosses being changed to the Balken Cross, if this is 425/17.

How the author could make a declarative statement about this being 425/17 is unknown. Maybe accompanying information stated so, who knows?

knightofdeath · 10 December 2009, 04:22 AM

Interesting info there Mode One...I'll have to get a copy of the Squadron Signals book! There does seem to be an awful lot of speculation going on there though...much like the rigmarol surrounding Werner Voss's F.1. I would definitely like to have a look for myself...what i'd give for a time machine!!

Mode One · 10 December 2009, 05:33 AM

The Squadron Signals book on the Dr1 (Copyright 1989) was written by Heinz Nowarra, who also cooperated on the Harleyford book "von Richthofen and the Flying Circus" first published in 1958. The artwork on my copy (1964 copyright) of this old book shows May, being chased by MvR, who is then being followed by Brown and shows MvR'sDr1 to have the modified Balken Crosses. Mr. Nowarra at the time was from the Luftfahrt-Archiv, Berlin.

I don't know if Mr. Nowarra is still considered an expert today.

Laserlloyd · 10 December 2009, 08:30 AM

knightofdeath,

I'll stick to your original question.

Quote:

What are the correct colours (and scheme) for Fokker Dr.I 425/17 flown by, The Red Baron himself, Manfred von Richthofen?

What month are we talking here? If you in reference to how his plane look at the time it was shot down on April 21 1918 then we have a pretty good idea on what it looked liked.

From most of the evidence of the fabric sample have reviled the underside surfaces were painted in the Fokker "Ultramarinblau" = ultramarine blue
Methuen 22 B 3.5 (Alan D. Toelle)
Methuen 24A5 (Dan-San Abbott)
After these surfaces were painted the factory blue then the red was applied over it. (The time in which this happen is just our guesstimate)

The top and side surface show that there was "NO" Fokker camouflage streaking under the red paint. the red as been identified as:
Methuen 10F8 DIAMINE BROWN (Dan-San) with carbon black added

Methuen 4F4/5 olive-brown that Paul Leaman identified in the seventies from the IWM fabric sample.

Methuen 9/10 C8 and 9/10 E8 CLARET BROWN/MADDER BROWN (Alan D. Toelle)
Methuen 9 (C-D) 8(Batter, Wally)

You will see that there are some slight differences in the color from the fabric samples. I think they are All correct. I think as the months go by and with all the cross changes and touch ups the red varied in color, some sections lighter then other sections that had been re-painted (or touched up) over again making it darker. I think this counts for the varying color of the known samples. I don't think it was a pretty one tone color like like you would find on a red Lamborghini but because of the fount line service it most have shown some aging and weathering of the paint.

There are in fact several intense threads on the whole subject of 425/17 that you can look in the archives for.

You will find several photos of the crosses that we have and see the cross changes that were done to each one.

The Rudder in the finial photo and the crash photos shows the rudder the be white. Just from some of the higher res photos from the crash the rudder seem not to have any red on it. this would imply that the rudder was possibly replaced or re-covered.

From the fabric samples we know that 425/17 did have makings on it. I believe that it did have "All" of it's marking (from the sample pieces we have) and them was painted over with the red.

I have yet seen a color profile of 425/17 in it's last stage that I could say I'm happy with, some are close but each one is different and doesn't. I have a most of them in my color profile section on my web site.

I think know matter of how you do it people will know what it is and only a handful of experts could point out the differences so once your done go ahead a post a photo of it I would like to see it.

Lloyd...