Pilot Badge Hallmarking

[ehrenpries]

Ive been vaguely aware that in some quarters any German WW1 Pilot Badge made by Junckers that has a crown in the hallmarking between the silver content and crescent moon stamps is regarded as a fake. I believe one of the premier German dealers maintains that poition.

The Derrittmeister site has just listed (and sold !) a beautiful Junckers badge that is undoubtably 'mated' to an original Junckers presentation box and complete with the crown hallmark.
www.derrittmeister.com under 'Just in from Germany'

Ive long respectfully disagreed with the 'German experts' view. Does this cased example with the crown from a highly respected American dealer
(OK I know some would prefer lower prices but that is up to him!) put this minor controversy to bed or does it open up a can of worms ?

What is your opinion......did Junckers make some flight badges with crown hallmarks ?

I now definately believe on balance that they did! What about you ?

Ehrenpries

(Please keep any comments if they refer to experts/dealers respectful and definately if they refer to me ! More mulled wine please nurse !) :P

[Jim]

I have no information on whether that is a real one or not so I can't remark one way or the other on it, but there is one thing about the whole thing that makes me a bit curious. Even if the badge and case are both authentic there is no way to be sure whether that particular badge is original to that particular case. The particular things that make me curious on this badge and case is the badge doesn't seem to fit into the case very well, along with the fact that there doesn't seem to be the deep impression in the case material that I might have expected from a hefty badge resting in it for eighty to ninety years. Maybe it is just the way the photo was taken, but I would have expected something more "perfect" in the way the badge fits in and is framed by the case for a presentation item from such a fancy maker, and I would have expected a deep impression of the badge into the material and perhaps even some discoloring around the shape as well.

It may be perfectly authentic, but these aspects would make me want to do some more research on this to satisfy myself on the authenticity - expecially at a price like that.

[tamerlane]

You have, indeed, opened up a huge can of worms. On various online forums, in collector's shows and perhaps even in the halls of Valhalla itself, the arguments about this issue go on and on.

My personal opinion is that there is more to look at than just the crown. There are basically two forms of Juncker pilot badges seen on the market - those with the crown and those without. But the crown is not the only distinguishing characteristic. Those without the crown have a different shape to the indentation on the back of the badge, and have no serif on the top of the J in "Juncker". Those with a crown always have the word "Berlin" in smaller letters than those without. As there are known, documented examples of the un-crowned type in old collections (including one pictured in one of Neal O'Connor's books), it is pretty certain that these much rarer types are original to the period.

So all of the ones with the crown, the serif on the "J" and the small "Berlin" in the hallmark - which are far more plentiful - are immediately suspect. At the very least, these crowned-hallmark pieces that have appeared all over the market in the last ten years would have to be called "post-war". The question is which war? My opinion is that they are post-Gulf War, but I can't absolutely prove it.

Tim

[AOK4]

I've had a 100% original in my hands and this one was only marked '800' on the pin. The pieces that were awarded only had this marking. Junkers etc. made pieces were wearer's copies.

Jan

Greetings all. You have to look at the bigger picture with these badges. All official-issued (at flight school) badges are stamped steel, with magnetic pins, exquisite detail and silvered. This holds true for both Prussia and Bavaria as I've owned groups from a pilot from each nation (including records of solo, award documents, etc.). These badges were issued in plain brown paper envelopes with no markings on the packet.
The silver badges you see heavily traded are all private-purchase pieces, jeweler made to spec. You'll see a wide variety of thickness of individual silver badges from Juncker as the war progressed. (Early/Pre-war badges are much heavier).
What does not change is the incredible depth, crispness of detail and the other characteristics of the design in the center of the wreath.

I subscribe to the "no crown" theory for one simple reason. There has not been a single (un-touched by collector group) badge and or grouping that has come either direct from the recipient, or his family, that bore the crown mark.

Hi Rick,

VERY nice badge! You mentioned that the stamped versions came with magnetic pins and were silvered. What is meant by "magnetic", and by "silvered" do you mean silver plated?

regards

Hi, by magnetic I mean that the pin itself is made of steel, ergo magnetic. Some (many of the fakes will have some type of crappy (non-magnetic) pin. Not a be-all/end-all defining point, but one more tool...
By silvered, yes, some type of silver plating was applied over the steel.
A good giveaway on the fakes is the "frosted" look to them. Lots of tiny black spots, etc. These almost uniformly bear a crown mark and the depth/detail is so awful compared to an original.

Hi again,


I appreciate the added info. Not to get too far off the topic, but after reading the posts, I am under the assumtion that there were post war silver badges manufatured by Junckers. Would these period (between the wars) pieces be as good quality as the ones that were manufactured during WWI? The reason why I ask is that a seller could say a badge is an 'original' Junckers and not be lying. Many people may not ask when it was manufactured.

regards

Hi, assuming constants in the post-WW1 hyperflation economy of Germany, I would expect that materials and workmanship of a higher quality would be in scarce supply. With conditions improving ca. 1937-41. Given the cost of tooling up a die to make these badges, I find it unreasonable to state that Juncker re-did their tooling. I would expect the dies would have been used until they were trashed.
The major difference that I have noted is badges from early in the war/pre-war used thicker sheets of silver for the stamping process. An early badge will be very visibly thicker than later ones.
I don't think anyone could determine the exact time a badge was made, whether 1913, or 1933. WW2 put Juncker out of business vis a vis the Allied bombing campaigns. To the best of my knowledge and research they did not open post-1945. WW2 badge guys will tell you that their production facility was a total loss. However, if any other members have any information regarding this company post 1945 I'd love any and all details!

Thanks Rick, That is kinda what I was thinking. I guess that best determinant for an original Junckers is the very fine details present inside the wreath, along with delicate hallmarks and a bright, unmarrred patina. BTW, welcome to the forum!

regards