EBay Immelmann signed Sanke..Fake or Real?

[ehrenpries]

Would any of our Forumites have any thoughts on item 2275907051 Max Immelmann signed sanke card ? (Just type the number into the ebay search window)

Ive corresponded privately with a couple of enthusiasts who cast some serious doubts on the item.

What do you think ?

Ehrenpries

I don't know, could be real. compare the Ebay signature (top) with the one found on Der Rittmeister. There are some similarities.

regards

[Amy]

I'm leaning toward it being a faker. That was my first reaction when I saw this post a few days ago. Thanks to WW's thumbnail comparison and another sig found in a book, I really think it's fake now.

1). The real Max signed his first initial "M" with sharp strokes which included a curl in this example. The fake looks too constrained.

2). The "I" in Immelmann is totally different. From the real sig I have, I can tell how they tried to copy it

3). The strokes in the fake sig are longer in length than with Immelmann's real sig, particularly with the "m"s. Looks that way with the "l" too.

4). Max's letters slant consistently more to the right than the fake, albeit a slight slant.

5). The real sig doesn't have the last letter "n" trailing downward and neither does my example.

Then again, I'm no handwriting expert but I sure wouldn't buy it.

Other clues that it might be a fake is that Swissbee placed a bid but didn't win. If he wanted to have this postcard/sig, he would have won. And ultimately, the postcard sold for only $209. I would think an authentic Max Immelmann postcard w/ sig would go for more than that.

I would think it could for sure be authenticated through the ink. If the faker wasn't using ink from around 1916 with a fountain pen but rather used a 2004 thin point black Sharpie, then the results from a lab test could tell.

Cheers, Amy

Well Amy, you convinced me! The differences far out-weigh the similarities.

regards

[ehrenpries]

Winged Warrior...very clever with the two samples together.wish I knew how you did that.

Amy.......most welcome comments.....any chance of a scan of your Max Immelmann ?

Yes ! Swissbee pulling out at $50 odd bucks was a surprise.....mind you he is known to bid a little erratically sometimes. I just out-bid him once, a long time ago, on what turned out to be a dud Wintgens that he was after ! Luckily I got my money back. I actually did our friend Swissbee a favor ! Darn ! ( Only joking Swissbee if your viewing !)

More mulled wine please nurse

Ehrenpries

[Amy]

Here's a scan of Immelmann's autograph from a repro card. You can tell how the forger tried to copy the capital "I" in his name, but failed miserably. Also note that Max's signatures look deliberate, concise and "professional" (for lack of a better word) whereas the fake has an overall sloppy appearance.

Something I noticed later is that many (if not all) of the original autographed postcards I've seen, the ink has faded with time. There's no fading of the ink w/ the fake.

Originally Posted by ehrenpries

Winged Warrior...very clever with the two samples together.wish I knew how you did that.

Actually it is easier then it looks. If you have the program 'Picture it' (or any other photo enhancement program), you can crop the pictures the way you would like, and apply them to a blank sheet of paper. Then size the paper to work with the limited image space provided on the Aerodrome.

regards

[ehrenpries]

Thanks WW.
Us dinosaurs learn something new every day.

It might be interesting to note that Max was well aware of his autograph value, and apparently was known to sell them himself ! He was quite a budding artist in his own right too. Ive also read stories of MvR allowing his quartermaster to trade autographs for squadron supplies too !

Ehrenpries

Hello. This is my first posting on the Aerodrome Forum and I'm pleased to be aboard! I wish I had known 'bout you guys earlier. I saw the Immelmann autograph in question on e-Bay and wondered about it as well. I contacted the seller and he offered money back if the signature proved "other than authentic." Frankly, I am new to this subject of autograph collecting and could not take the plunge. I too felt that the signature seemed too dark and new, but it did have quite a few similarities to the one on Der Rittmeister.
Well, hopefully you guys will teach me a thing or two about the signatures of WW1 pilot PLM winners!undefined

[ehrenpries]

Welcome to the Forum
Some advice....well ! Youve already discovered the Forum at the Aerodrome so that is good.

Honestly, if you know very little and you want to get one of the big names like MvR, LvR,Boelcke or Immelmann in signature form them please forget ebay until you have put in some study into the field. And definately until you know otherwise follow the maxim "If in doubt chuck it out !"

Certificates of authenticity , lifetime guarantees ,should be treated with a pinch of salt.

Low starting bids or 'private bidding' appearing in the auction should in general raise alarms. Nobody is going to run the risk of letting a real MvR go for $50 and quite often the private bidding is only to stop experts contacting the bidders to warn them off. (Of course this is not true of every situation and some use the private bidding to get rid of interfering non-experts!)

Use the escrow service that ebay lists if you are going to part with big cash. They have licensed middlemen to hold the payment until you are satisfied the item is genuine.

Never send cash..ebay does not protect deals done in cash.


My best advice is save up and fork out the 4 figures required for a big name item and buy from DerRittmeister in USA or Stefan Korlin in Germany or BP stamps in UK (as and when he gets the occassional WW1 item).All absolutely genuine expert dealers who would never sell an item unless they are absolutely convinced it is genuine. The old story..if you want the best (in this case as unquestionably genuine an autograph as one can ever likely to be ) then the drawback is you unfortunately have to pay for it !

If going on your own you need a library of sample examples gleaned from every book or magazine you can find, a 200x microscope to detect items that are printed , learn about flow,size, rhythm, ink density, crossovers, and what else ? Im not sure , Im still learning!

Good luck

Ehrenpries