How many confirmed victories had Jacobs..??

[Soderbaum]

Hi all

I have been wondering a couple of Years of the total confirmed score of Jacobs.
Throughout the Years many proposals has been given like 38,41,47 and 48..

The unofficial lists published in Germany shortly after the War mostly gives 38 or 41.

The Heeresbericht and the Nachrichtenblatt last mentions is his 38th on 4 Oct 1918.
The book Imperial Awards Vol V by Neal O´Connor states that his victory on 14 October 1918 was
confirmed as 41st(chronical 44th) by KoGenLuft on 17 Dec 1918.
A bit confusing reading all sources..!

Does anyone have the answer...??
When did the KoGenLuft closed their books...??

Any hints is welcome..!!

Gunnar

Hello Gunnar,

Like you I have seen many versions of Josef Jacobs' victory scores. The sources I have range from 41 to 48. One book even lists 2 different scores! I have found that it is very difficult to find consistent information on Jacobs, which is amazing considering his known accomplishments. You might be interested in the thread I posted below "Re:Josef Jacobs" for more info, but I'm afraid there is as much that I don't know about him as that which I do know.
Best Wishes,
Gary Jacobs

[Barrett]

THE book, Above the Lines by Franks, Baily & Guest, shows 48 victories between 1 Feb '16 and 27 Oct '18. The authors note, "His score has variously been reported as between 44 and 48 but current research reveals the higher score."

And all(or most) of his victories were in
the Fokker DrI?

Hello All,

Josef Jacobs scored victories in aircraft ranging from Fokker E-Types to D-VII's, but he downed over 30 while flying the Triplane, making him the most successful of the Dr.1 pilots. Amazingly, he flew the plane well into the summer of 1918--long after everyone else considered it obsolete. But it suited his particular combat style well, so he stuck with it.

Best Wishes,
Gary Jacobs

If Jacobs did die on the 28th of July 1978 (as was mentioned in the last thread concerning him), then the Aerodrome is wrong because it states his death one day later. I know it's tedious to check all data mentioning aces and aircraft, but something that's uncontroversial (or at least seems to be) like someone's date of death somewhere in the 70's , should be recorded accurately.

[Reinout]

From the back of my mind, JJ died on the 29th.

ATL gives 48 victories and about 7 unconfirmed, most of them in 1917 which was a relatively dry spell for him in regards to confirmed victories. When he got a triplane, he found the plane that matched his style.

I recall from "Aviation Awards" Volume V that JJ during interviews with Neal O'Connor claimed he never shot down more than 47... I guess he meant officially. Perhaps a late confirmation never reached him? And stranger still, he apparently didn't think that much of the 7 unconfirmeds he had. Most pilots would go on an on about denied claims. And in his case, he had a good right: if they had all been confirmed, he would have edged out Erich löwenhardt by one victory. But I'm drifting here...

There's a huge chapter in Volume V, I'll try and see what it says about his score.

Kind regards,

Reinout

[Reinout]

I checked: Volume V, p56 indeed states that JJ during later life claimed 47 to be his total.

While he was supposedly at Adlershof airfield for the last D-trials from 24 Oct to 2 Nov, ATL gives him a 48th victory on Oct 27! Though strange, it must be given serious consideration. Perhaps he went to the D-trials late?

Also, JJ stopped writing his diary after 26 Sep 1918 so he can't really help us. He stood by 47.

Kind regards,

Reinout

Hello All,

Sorry I stand corrected. When I wrote the thread above I was doing so totally from memory. Josef died on 29 July 1978 as pointed out and at the time of his death he was the last surviving aviation recipient of the Pour le Merite.

I have a picture with no date on it, showing a group of pilots all wearing the PLM. They all have heavy winter coats. In the front is Jacobs,Udet, and Bäumer---grouped behind them are several others including Goering. One of them is Karl Degelow, the last recipient of the PLM. I figured out that the picture was made during the final D-Trials, just before the Armistice.

So Detective Hubbers, what do the clues reveal? Did Jacobs shoot down #48 while attending the D-Trials or perhaps was he awarded a previously unconfimed? It does appear that he was not a self-promoter, preferring instead to let his results speak for themselves.

Best Wishes All,
Gary Jacobs

[Reinout]

Well, as Barrett said, the researchers of ATL finished off the idea that JJ had between 38 and 47 on official lists and therefore a somewhat mysterious score. And they also found a 48th victory which according to a footnote in Neal's Volume V, came from a respectable German researcher (now deceased). There is photographic evidence of JJ being at the D-trials so physically scoring on 27th Oct doesn't seem plausible. Had he gone to Adlershof late, with the means of transportation available to him in 1918, he wouldn't have done any flying there. I reckon it would take a man about a day and a half to go from the front in France to Berlin and the same amount to go back. If JJ started his journey on the 27th or 28th and was back on 2 Nov, then I don't think he would have bothered to go at all! I think you gave the best solution: a late confirmation of an earlier claim. There's a table in Volume V showing some of JJ's last victories and how and when they were eventually confirmed by Kogenluft and to be honest: it's a quagmire! There's almost no chronological order in the confirmations. And that may well have happened to JJ's last. However it still seems odd that JJ never mentioned a 48th possible victory which wasn't confirmed. He always stood by 47. On the other hand, if nobody ever told him his 48th was confirmed while he was in Berlin (or perhaps even later), than he likely felt the counter had simply stopped at 47: he never whined about the 7 unconfirmeds he had during 1917. I am willing to believe 48 to be his official victory count though I would like to know more about where this last one came from.

I can't really help more, we'd need the authors of ATL for that!

Kind regards,

Reinout