Subjecting Ball to the Bishop treatment

What would happen to Ball if we subjected his VC citation to the same type of treatment Bishop has received?

Don't blame me for raising this question. Albert's record was questioned in a thread by another forumite a few days ago. In it, he said it's hard to prove Ball scored many victories in 1917, going by German records. He also noted many of them were claimed as destroyed (not OOC or forced to land) and openly suggested Albert was a liar. I can't remember which thread it was in, or who it was, but it was in recent days. You can, as they say, look it up.

Anyway, I decided to get out Albert's VC citation to see what it says. It reads as follows:

"For most conspicuous and consistent bravery, from 25 April to 6 May 1917, during which period Captain Ball took part in 16 combats in the air and destroyed 11 hostile aeroplanes, drove down two out of control and forced several others to land. Flying alone, on one occasion he fought six hostile machines, twice he fought five and once four. When leading two other British planes, he attaked an enemy formation of eight. On each of these occasions he brought down at least one enemy plane and several times his plane was badly damaged. On returning with a damaged plane, he had always to be restrained from immediately going out in another."

This citation makes it clear a number of these victories were scored on solo flights. In other words, it doesn't sound like he had any witnesses.

Anyway, historians have checked Balls claims closely against German records. So what do those records show?

He claimed two as destroyed on April 26. One is not in the records while the other is listed by the Grub Street people as "possibly" being Emil Eisnhoth.

Next comes a destroyed claim on April 28 with no German confirmation.

Next comes a destroyed and an OOC on May 2 with no enemy confirmation for either.

Next comes two destroyed on May 2, with no confirmations from the other side.

Next comes a destroyed on May 4 with no German verification.

Next comes two destroyed on May 5, again with no enemy confirmations.

Next comes a destroyed on May 6 that is positively identified as Vfw. Jager, who was wounded.

If you wanted to, you could make a pretty good (but probably unfair) case that Ball scored only one victory during that period. And even then he only wounded his adversary. At most, if German records are to be believed, he had two victories, killing one pilot and wounding a second.

To sum up, Albert Ball won the VC for claiming to have shot down a dozen opponents in mostly unwitnessed combats during which it later turned out there was almost no evidence of his exploits
from the other side.
Sound familiar?




Checking Albert's VC citation we find he won it for his exploits in 1917. It makes it clear that he claimed many of his kills as "destroyed." It adds some came on solo missions (so we must assume they were not witnessed.

[wings]

That book is wrong about two of Ball's claims. On April 26, 1917, Eisenhuth, of Jasta 3 was killed during the morning. Ball's claim was late in the day. On May 6, 1917, Jager, of Jasta 20, was injured in an accident, not combat.

[Ginger.]

I would be very interested to see how Ball's claims compare to these fabled German records.Was it them who recorded Ball's death? He flew into a cloud in an SE5,popped out in a Sopwith Triplane,and was promptly despatched by The Von's kid brother,crashing with no signs of comat damage to him or his Triplane.
On a serious note,I halve our lads scores and still call them Heroes.You can't do that with The Von "Under The Guns Of The Red Baron" is too full of dead Heroes for that.

[Richard_Schrader]

We should remember that in May & June of 1917, the RFC was reeling from "Bloody April". It was in bad need of heroes. They may have been more lax about the facts, and more interested in building the flying corp back up. This could explan not only Ball's VC,{which I think he should have gotten 6 months earlier} and Bishop's VC for his "raid".
Ginger;
Both Richthofens are still heroes in my eyes. In WW1 nobody did it better!
Richard

Alan Jerrards VC is even more suspect then either
Balls or Bishops. The latter were both long term
fighter pilots of high quality. I doubt that the British high command were counting victories. I am sure everyone is familiar with the lack of publicity accorded to British "aces". I believe that VC's were awarded in some cases for morale boosting purposes and to reward service.
I do not believe this differs much from the PLM.

andy

If Jasta's info is correct, it looks like Ball got the VC for a dozen victories in the destroyed category that never actually happened, including some flamers.

[Richard_Schrader]

Bud;
The German records work both ways. They also show that Ball should have credited with 2 of his unconfirmed kills. Both were of Jasta 2 pilots, one in August, 1916 & the other in September of the sme year.
Richard

Richard, I suspect the German records could also be used to confirm a Ball victory on May 7 against Lothar von Richthofen. But the point of this thread is to show that, according to German records, he won the VC for apparently shooting down no one at all. The citation is for a specific time period, mentioning a dozen victories that the Germans (and our own Jasta) say never took place. Many of these 'victories' appear to have been 'scored' on lone wolf patrols, without witnesses. The real point I'm making is that Bishop was by no means alone when it comes to lack of verification in German records. Nor was he alone in being given credit for unwitnessed kills. It doesn't even appear that he was alone (as so many have claimed) when it comes to winning the VC for an unwitnessed exploit. The Ball citation certainly suggests a number of Albert's 12 kills between April 25 and May 6 took place on solo flights.

Agreed! To fly AND fight in the kind of conditions prevelent during WW1, was heroic, no matter what the score!!

Why all the emphasis on German records? Really no one will ever know the truth because the German records are going to be conservative in the extreme. Similarily, the British records were probably somewhat optimistic as well.