Hlotzem's D.III? Jabobs' Dr. I?

G'day, Aerodromists--
The markings and finish of the above-captioned airframes, bearing two of the most interesting schemes of the war, have currently drawn the atteniton of members of the WWI Modeling List.
It has been suggested there that since both pilots lived on into the '70s, the commonly accepted interpretations of these schemes are owing to Holtzem's and Jacobs' own eyewitness reports. Can this be confirmed by any Forum members?
1. Holtzem's Pfalz: Two unsettled questions are the existence of the upper port wing repitition of the fuselage eight-pointed star and the finish of the mainplanes were finished in silbergrau or printed fabric.
2. Colors used on the "God of the North Wind," the model for which I have identified as the Greek god Boreas after reading one List members thoughtful suggestions for an alternative interpretation. Interested Aerodromists will want to visit the following Web page for details:

http://www.tmg.obywatel.pl/pr_jacobs_josef.htm

Thanks and regards to all,
Stef

Stef,

I own a copy of Windsock International, Vol. 8, No. 4, where a letter from V. Hausler of Mainz, Germany, brings up the possibility of lozenge fabric on Holtzem's machine, based on shading in the admittedly poor photos in the Datafile. It includes a third, equally poor, image which also shows the individual exhaust stacks. I have studied this and the two images in the datafile, and have convinced myself that it MAY have had lozenge. I have actually been working on a 1/48 Eduard kit, and hoped to eventually get it posted on Hyperscale, as sort of a surprise to all those used to seeing the usual images. Still not sure about 4 or 5-color, but it ought to make a striking kit of the markings that "everybody" seems to be building.

It'd be great if we could get more information on this possibility.

Rich

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Stef:
The Pfalz D.IIIa that Vzfw. Max Holtzem of Jasta 16b flew was a late model from the production order D.8000-8339/17. This is evident with the pointed ends of the cabane struts as well as the interplane struts. This change occurred during the production batch. The finish is aluminum dope all over.
From what information I have, the Pfalz Flugzeug werke did not use printed fabric until the 1918 order D.1250-1349/18. What is interesting is they used the five color day dark pattern on the upper surface of the wings, elevator and rudder and plain linen on the under surfaces on some of this batch, D.IIIa 1284/18 is an example. I am not sure
they even painted the under surfaces at all.
Others APPEAR to have the day five color light pattern on the under surfaces. It may be the dark pattern showing through the under surface clear doped fabric. To add to the confusion still were painted with aluminum dope overall, ie. D.IIIa 1269/18.
Blue skies,
Dan-San Abbott

I only have the Datafile picture tu judge from. I will not argue about lozenge or not, but what I am thinking about is the colour of the comet. There is a good contrast compared to the white sourrounding of the Balkenkreuz which lets me to the opinion that the comet was any other colour than white. Yellow? Pink, if you like, but no white.

Hans Trauner wrote:
"I only have the Datafile picture tu judge from."

As do I, unfortunately. The originals are bad, and Albatros Pub reproductions are less than exemplary. It is a problem that those of us who would like to research these matters but do not have access to the original photos must try to deal with. Fortunately, the Holtzem images are at least printed fairly large.

"I will not argue about lozenge or not,"

See my reply to DSA.

"but what I am thinking about is the colour of the comet. There is a good contrast compared to the white sourrounding of the Balkenkreuz which lets me to the opinion that the comet was any other colour than white. Yellow? Pink, if you like, but no white."

I am not sure what you mean by 'good contrast' between the cross outline and the shooting star tail. (I believe that most of these motifs alluded to falling stars, not comets, but let's keep that for another day.) I have undertaken fairly extensive examination of high-magnification, high-resolution scans of the DF images, and the tail and the cross outline actually match quite closely in tonal value, except at the extreme left at the tail's fork. There, however, the light is falling off, and other values also suffer. Additonally, if we assume that the photo was taken on the most commonly used film of the period--orthochromatic--I can think of no hue that will be rendered in the 'white' range of values other than a mid to light blue. And I would consider that to me the wrong color, artistically speaking, for the shooting star. The options you propose--yellow and pink--would definitely be rendered darker than the tail appears in the photos.

(Just a suggestion about the apparent contrast: The white of the cross appears whiter because it is surrounded by essentially darker tones of the cross itself, the black stripes, and the darker silbergrau. The tail appears less white because it travels along the highlight of the curve of the fuselage, which lightens the darker neighboring tones.)
Regards,
Stef

Ever-knowledgeable Dan-San, thank you for your reply.
In response to the information you have provided, I am interested in whether the serials you note for the introduction of printed-fabric are necessarily precluded from having been built under the werke order you note.
Examination of the photos in the Albatros Pub Datafile suggests that the visible starboard wing *was* covered in lozenge. And the same examination of the upper wing, while less conclusive, suggests that lozenge wss also used on it. As you may know, Volker Hausler has also presented arguments in Windsock favoring the idea that lozenge was used, including the dark appearance of the upper wing in the front view of the Holtzem's aircraft not printed in the Datafile.

Aside from other reasons, I confess that my pressing this point relates to the putative repetitiion of the star on the port wing. Concerning this marking, I think the photos are extremely equivocal. It is my understanding that Greg van Wyngarden was the one who originally suggested its placement on the wing. Do you know whether this is so? It seems clear to me that if the wings were lozenge covered, then the star would be unlikely.

Kind regards,
Stef

Thanks for your reply, Stef. I would never state an exact colour judging from a b/w print. Especially if we don't know of pan- or ortochromatic material was used. All I see is the contrast between the light parts of the comet and the Balkenkreuz. Take a look to the part where the light part of the star is overlapping the white Balkenkreuz. This overlapping is clearly visible. Ortochromatic film or not, light conditions on this small part of the fuselage are the same. There is a contrast, and this makes clear that the comet's colours are not pure white. Take anything else, from light grey to light green or ochre or pink, but no white

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
I would like to throw my two cents into this discussion. I think the Comet and tail is black and white. I am looking at the top photo on page 11 of the Pfalz D.IIIa Datafile No 21. The lateral point of the star that is touching the white border has little to no contrast. I think it is white a shade off the white border that was painted at the Pfalz Werke.
In regards to Jacob's Fok. Dr.I 450/17. Does this "God of the North" have horns? I think it is a winged devil!
blue skies,
Dan-San Abbott

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Stef:
In my previous I had made an incorrect statement.
After I had thought about the 5 color printed fabric in regard to Pfalz D.IIIa production, I remembered a photograph that I have of a Pfalz D.IIIa rudder fabric cover. After I found it I received a E-Mail from Volker Häusler providing me with supporting data. The Pfalz Flugzeug Werke began using the 5 color printed day pattern on Pfalz D.IIIa aircraft with and/or during production order D.8000-8339/17. There are some aircraft s/n D.8223 or 8283/17(rudder fabric)and D.8284/17, Pollinger, Jasta 77b. I am not sure at what serial number they stared using the printed fabric.
Blue skies,
Dan-San Abbott