What Gives TVAL???

[speedandangels]

So I've been trying to research the BMW 6 cylinder engine used in the Fokker D.VII. I saw a documentary on Peter Jackson's enterprise, his passion for WWI stuff particularly aircraft, and his aircraft projects. Very impressive.

https://youtu.be/7gmZ9X9Aplk?si=0PgTcx2JVeUSzV04

After learning they basically recreated the Mercedes version of the engine we all need, I reached out twice to The Vintage Aircraft Limited, TVAL, and got zero response.

I realize it was a costly, lengthy, and humongous undertaking to make that engine, but damn. I would think they would share what they did for the rest of the community. I would even think they might just try to sell these engines. I mean. After all the NRE, vendor sourcing, logistics, testing, and refinement what else is there to do other than turn a profit!!!! The hard part is over. I don't understand why I didn't even get a response.

[Beto]

TVAL ceased their activity a few years ago, now they only keep maintenance of their collection. They recreated the Mercedes D.IIIa engine, not the BMW. Besides that, they stopped selling parts even before.

[speedandangels]

Hmmmm. I didn't know they ceased operations. Anyone know why? Maybe that's all the more reason to push out their Mercedes engine "package" of info and experience. Maybe there is a business opportunity there somewhere. Clearly they wouldn't sell Lycoming number or anything close to it, but two years worth of multi-member team has to be worth something. They made one, the next few get easier and easier. Does anyone have a contact there? I saw the Kermit Weeks sent Peter Jackson three of his Mercedes engines to measure and map out. Maybe Kermit has an in......

[Maxim08]

They built more than one D IIIa, primarily for their own use. There is no financial reason for TVAL to ‘need’ to capitalize on their efforts. Prior to TVAL’s work on the D IIIa, this forum was full of machinists and hobbyists saying ‘if I only had drawings I could build one in my garage’. Well, TVAL had drawings, suppliers on 4 continents, deep pockets and motivation and it still took years before the 1st engine ran.

Don’t mistakenly think a D IIIa is a simple or low precision engine because it’s not. I’ve been inside a few and they are both complex beautifully manufactured and big. You’ll struggle to find someone capable or even interested in making a 5 foot long camshaft much less the crank or the hundreds of other parts.

BTW, cost of one of their engines, unassembled, no mark up (!) was about 3 times the market price for a running original and that was 10 years ago.

Regards,
John

[speedandangels]

Thanks for the reply John and your insight. I agree with your words and sentiment. As a machinist, welder, fabricator, wood worker, mechanical engineer, professional product designer, CAD modeler, private pilot, and mechanic who has worked with older tube and fabric aircraft alongside other AnPs, and in motorcycle dealerships the effort and cost TVAL undertook isn’t lost on me. I fully realize I couldn’t build one myself. It’s also one thing to machine a part out of a chunk of metal, it’s quite another to choose the RIGHT metal and apply treatments, and ultra precise fitments on very large components (as you pointed out).

But that’s the whole point. These are rare items that are wearing out and only getting rarer. Art, collectibles, and rarities sought after by obsessed fanatics don’t usually oblige normal financial practices. Haha. Sure they have no financial incentive, but they accomplished something fantastic that few people could do or have the initiative and means to do. It would be like rebuilding Notre Dame and then keeping it out of sight only for yourself. Lol. I know, I know. I’m asking them to exemplify an extraordinary level of benevolence by sharing and offering. But from what I saw and learned, they are about continuing WWI traditions, knowledge, and artifacts, not about turning a profit anyway. So why not share? Think of the tax write off!!!! Haha.

Plus if we had a full engineering manufacturing package, there might be some solution space to make a “replica”, not a “reproduction” and make some cost cutting measures here and there. After all this is 2025, and that was over a hundred years ago. Manufacturing has come a long way.

I’ve searched for running originals. While I didn’t do an exhaustive search, the time I spent seemed to indicate there aren’t many of these things around and even less for sale. Anyone know the current price for a running original?

[womenfly2]

Why TVAL is what it is today. ... sad really.

[Bert Angles]

Originally Posted by Beto

TVAL ceased their activity a few years ago, now they only keep maintenance of their collection. They recreated the Mercedes D.IIIa engine, not the BMW. Besides that, they stopped selling parts even before.

What a shame.We can all think of aeroplanes wed like to see TVAL build. I was hoping one day to see a Handley Page or a Gotha GIII take to the New Zealand air!
Bearing in mind they have already filled many of the gaps in the WW1 sector have we any more realistic nominations for planes yet to be reserected?
I acknowledge that this thread is concerned with engines and they are arguably more important than airframes , but I can't think of one that's in need of replicating other than the ABC Dragonfly , just to see how much lost potential was involved there.

[MattS]

I have reached out a couple of times with much simpler questions. No reply, and I'm a local (relatively speaking).

In niche areas Kiwis are a bit weird about tire kickers (speaking as a kiwi) and tend to assume first that anyone interested has to be a tire kicker and a waste of space, until they prove otherwise. This is definitely a niche area and the only way through that is to literally turn up at the door and have a chat. Once the ice is broken, things get much easier.

Just in case "tire kicker" doesn't translate it derives from people who come around to see your car for sale. No intention of buying, just idiots wanting to kick the tyres and be critical.

[Askania]

There is more to it than Mr. De Marco.

Be free to listen to how Achim Engels was treated by the famous director and his staff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PZtK6SnX_I&t=1534s

[womenfly2]

Was the American builder Fred Murrin?