James Butler White 8 Naval/208 Sqn

[spad]

"Naval 8" was the first book I bought when I became interested in the RNAS. I then gleaned info from Chris Draper's memoirs and odds-and-sods elsewhere (Fighter Pilot on the Western Front by ED Crundall; accounts of the star performers of the triplane-era like Booker and Little, an article about RJO Compston). But their performance and personnel post- April 1918 has been until now, a vague interest. Reading an article in CCI where a 208 Sqn "ace" pilot shot and wounded a Dolphin of 19 Squadron has excited said dormant interest.

Can anyone give me details of the career of James Butler White? He was probably the offender in the 19 Squadron incident, and also apparently driven by the desire to be an "ace". He became a flight commander c.September 1918 and won the DFC.

Capt WEG "Pedro" Mann is also going to appear in my posts. Not least why he was called "Pedro"

best regards

Keith

[spad]

This is what I have for Mann

http://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Mann.htm

regards

Keith

[josquin]

Keith,

Supplementing the information in RAFWeb, William Edward George Mann was born at Ealing, Middlesex and died in Hampshire.
James Butler White was born at Manitoulin Island, Ontario, 9 July 1893, worked as a civil engineer for the Canadian Pacific Railway, at Winnipeg, Manitoba, in 1911-14 and as a banker at Standard Bank, Vancouver, British Columbia in 1914-16. Joining the RNAS 17 February 1917, he was appointed a Probationary T/Flt Sub-Lt on that date and was confirmed in rank as a Flt Sub-Lt 1 August 1917. His RAF Casualty Form says he embarked to EF on 28 September 1918 but his ADM-273 service record states that he was posted to Dover on 29 September 1917. Serving with 8 N. Sqn/208 Sqn RAF, his 1st victory claim was on 24 January 1918, his 5th claim on 29 July 1918,(to clarify when he became an "ace pilot"), and he had 12 claims in all. Appointed T/Capt & Flt Cdr 19 August 1918, he was awarded the D.F.C.(London Gazette 3 December 1918), posted to Home Establishment 3 April 1919, and was on the Unemployed List 3 July 1919. White was rated "quite satisfactory" as a pilot on 25 December 1917, at Dunkirk. He became a stockbroker, founded J.B. White & Co.stockbrokers in Toronto, in 1924, and was the President of the Toronto Stock Exchange from 1945-47. Captain White died at Toronto, on 24 January 1972. His correct birthdate is 9 July 1893, as verified by the Ontario Births registry and a family tree compilation, but 1894 is given (in error) by his ADM-273 and Air 76 service records as well as his gravestone. There is an excellent biography with photo in the "Aces"
section on The Aerodrome site.

Josquin

[spad]

Found a few more things, but frustratingly nothing about why he was called "Pedro". If his name was Peter I might have a reasonable answer but...

That said I believe he was assigned to 8 Naval on 4 November 1917 in England. Apart from his training at Chingford I don't know anything of his training, enlistment date etc. Did he join with FSL EG Johnstone? He was definitely with 8 Naval squadron in February 1918 and was probably on it's books on 1 January 1918.

His lack of scoring until May 1918 might be attributed to 8 Naval being on home service and the loss of the all the squadron's Camels destroyed on the ground on the orders of Major Chris "The Mad Major" Draper in March 1918. His title and the event are not related . I have not found any claims from 18th February until 6 April 1918.

Pedro's command of a flight in August 1918 is less easy to attribute. JB White and Mann (T/Capt 27 Aug.1918) seem to have become flight commanders in August 1918. One of them probably replaced the last of the high scoring aces of the squadron, Capt WL Jordan. Probably the Canadian JB White.

In April 1918 the flight commanders are WL Jordan, R McDonald and Gerrard? (assuming the "ace" TFN Gerrard is a supernumery Captain?). The fit for Gerrard requires confirmation he was a flight commander. Jordan may have replaced FCdr RJO Compston, both as leading flight commander and ranking "ace" pilot by 18 February 1918.

In May 1918: GK Cooper is promoted T/Capt 14 May 1918 but was TE this month. He returned in August 1918 to lead a flight. He therefore cannot be Compston's replacement or McDonald's. Capt HGW Debenham (ex-46 Sqn) led a flight from 10 May 1918 until an unknown date. He probably replaced Capt Roderick McDonald who was killed on 8 May 1918.

By late August the flight commanders appear to be Captains JB White, WEG Mann and JS McDonald. If White replaced, as I expect, Jordan then who were the predecessors of Mann and McDonald ?

From early October the squadrom was re-equipping with Snipes and saw little action.

Therefore I am looking not only for details of Mann's flight training and enlistment details but also the flight commanders in 208 Squadron April-August 1918 not mentioned in this diatribe

..and the nickname "Pedro"

regards

Keith

[josquin]

Keith,

T.F.N. Gerrard RNAS service record (ADM 273) lists the following:
birthdate: 13 August 1897
entry into RNAS: 20 November 1915
to be Flt Sub-Lt with seniority from 20 November 1915
to be Flt Lt 1 January 1916
to be A/Flt Cdr 3 December 1916
to be Flt Cdr 31 December 1916 (and, of course, he was Major/Sqn Ldr later, in 1918)

W.E.G. Mann's ADM-273 record indicates:
birthdate 20 April 1899, NOK residing at Ealing
entry to RNAS 29 April 1917, Probationary T/Flt Sub Lt, same date; confirmed in rank 19 September 1917
posted to Dunkirk 5 November 1917
rating dated 25 December 1917: "V.G. pilot indeed good officer. Recommended for service"

Mann's RAF Casualty Form states:
embarked to EF 4 November 1917
to be A/Capt 27 August 1917
to Home Establishment 26 August 1919

I researched Mann's parents to see if there was an Iberian connection, but
no joy--William Henry Mann, his father, was born in Kensington, London, and
his mother, Pattie Isabel (Lancashire) Mann, was born in Hampshire. The
origins of "Pedro" remain obscure, then.

Josquin

[R Gannon]

Hi Keith,

I haven’t seen the C&C Int article, but I’m assuming we are talking 19 Apr 18 and the incident involving the wounding of 2Lt RG Lye from 19 Sqn on Dolphin C4048? On a morning OP (left 07.21) with Maj Carter and evidently attacked by a Camel – being wounded and effecting a forced landing in French held trenches (probably near Mt Kemmel). I’ve had a claimed by Lt HG Watson from 4 AFC pencilled in my log but admittedly there is a time factor; as this was at 12.05. I take it something has been dug up which points the finger at White from 208 Sqn? They were clearly up and about dropping 40 bombs on the First Army front.

Russ

[spad]

The article postulates that White was the offender but since White never admitted it no further action was taken. At the time White (deputy leader of C Flight) was flying alone. 19 Squadron spotted a lone Camel and then came under attack by an unidentified opponent. White was keen to increase his tally of victories and it was thought he may have made the attack, then identified his mistake.

The article is a treasure trove of information. It also introduces the possibility that Major Albert Carter was murdered by his own 2 Squadron CAF air mechanics! He was apparently very unpopular with his men (and fellow pilots) and no less than Don MacLaren is said to have believed they had sabotaged the Fokker DVII he flew on his last day. The flight was also a challenge to Captain CF Falkenberg of 1 Sqn caf over who was the best dogfighter! Falkenberg had called him out after listening to Carter's boasts.

I confess I would take the "murder" thesis with a pinch of salt. Carter may have been unpleasant to the other ranks but murder would be a very extreme reaction to this.

best regards

Keith

[spad]

According to Norman Franks "Pedro" Mann was so named because of his dark complexion. I have yet to see a photograph of him therefore I cannot judge.

There is a photograph on the 208 Squadron website

http://www.naval8-208-association.co...WIGallery.html


but apart from Draper I have no definite identifications of the pilots. That's today's task. Maybe Mann is among them?

best regards

Keith

[spad]

...a dose of Cascara in his coffee (as suggested in the fictional Batholomew Bandy novel) would have been more appropriate

[spad]

In the photo I think the pilot on Draper's right is JB White. I therefore assume that the other two flight commanders are in the front row. The chap on his left has a decoration ribbon (DFC?) and the relaxed chap next to him I have seen before, possibly in "Naval Eight".

K