Shot Down 10th Oct 1916 - more detail ?

[FamousRaider]

As I explained in my intro posting my knowledge background is in British WW1 period Army records and I have no knowledge of the structure, location and availability of WW1 German Army and Air Force records. Neither do I speak any German.

The first event which I am trying to add final details to is as follows. FE2b No 6992 of No 11 Squadron RFC reputedly took-off about 2:30pm / 14:30 hrs (British time) on October 10th 1916 and was attacked and subsequently witnessed going down in flames near Beugny, north-east of Bapaume, Somme. There appears to be come confusion as to who actually shot it down, some sources claiming it was Hptm Oswald Boelcke of Jasta 2, but it seems to be much more likely that it was Hptm Martin Zander of Jasta 1 – who possibly mistook FE2b No 6992 to be a DH2 (?).

The first question therefore is can anybody firm up who it was who shot down 6992; what were they flying (type and number), and where more precisely did 6992 crash ?

Moving on; we know that the Germans buried the two crewmen from 6992 in graves 219 and 220 at Fremicourt Communal Cemetery German Extension because we have a copy the German Gräberverwaltungsoffiziere’s 1916 register entries for these burials at “Fremicourt Militärfriedhof” (sourced from the Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge).

The second and more important question is that I want to try and establish the sequence of events between the shooting-down and the burials at Fremicourt. Airmen on both sides tended to be quite respectful with regards to the burial of dead enemy airmen (especially this far behind the front) and our hope would be that some German records might mention the event.

Any and all help with this will be much appreciated – most especially with regards to the second question.
Tom

[jsontag]

I wish I had an answer for you, my friend, but I have not a clue. I'm sure Russ, Graeme, or someone on here will have the answers you are looking for.

[Graeme]

Try here:

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=66661

Graeme

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by FamousRaider

As I explained in my intro posting my knowledge background is in British WW1 period Army records and I have no knowledge of the structure, location and availability of WW1 German Army and Air Force records. Neither do I speak any German.

The first event which I am trying to add final details to is as follows. FE2b No 6992 of No 11 Squadron RFC reputedly took-off about 2:30pm / 14:30 hrs (British time) on October 10th 1916 and was attacked and subsequently witnessed going down in flames near Beugny, north-east of Bapaume, Somme. There appears to be come confusion as to who actually shot it down, some sources claiming it was Hptm Oswald Boelcke of Jasta 2, but it seems to be much more likely that it was Hptm Martin Zander of Jasta 1 – who possibly mistook FE2b No 6992 to be a DH2 (?).

The first question therefore is can anybody firm up who it was who shot down 6992; what were they flying (type and number), and where more precisely did 6992 crash ?

Moving on; we know that the Germans buried the two crewmen from 6992 in graves 219 and 220 at Fremicourt Communal Cemetery German Extension because we have a copy the German Gräberverwaltungsoffiziere’s 1916 register entries for these burials at “Fremicourt Militärfriedhof” (sourced from the Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge).

The second and more important question is that I want to try and establish the sequence of events between the shooting-down and the burials at Fremicourt. Airmen on both sides tended to be quite respectful with regards to the burial of dead enemy airmen (especially this far behind the front) and our hope would be that some German records might mention the event.

Any and all help with this will be much appreciated – most especially with regards to the second question.
Tom

Mate,
Welcome to the flagship 'The Aerodrome' where the finest minds on the planet get together and talk about their favorite subject - WW1

tcrean7828

tom

[josquin]

Two posts on the Great War Forum (www.greatwarforum.org) present an extensive
examination of the subject of Jeffs and Haxton, including CWGC records. The posts
are referenced as follows:

"Unknown RFC: Corporal B.F.G. Jeffs, 11th Sqd.," posted 12 July 2016, by laughton.

"Mystery flyer," posted 10 May 2009, by John Hartley.

Laughton has contributed many Great War Forum threads that have identified
unknown Great War servicemen. His work is highly informative--and recommended.
As for your initial enquiry, Graeme and Russ agree that Hptm. Martin Zander shot
down Jeffs and Haxton, as per Graeme's post and his "100 Years Ago" series.

Josquin

[Froggy]

Here it is said that the final grave of Sgt Ernest N Haxton is located at
Douchy-les-Ayette British Cemetery
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...rnest-n-haxton

and Bertie Frederick George Jeffs have his name at
Arras Flying Services Memorial
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...k_george-jeffs

[FamousRaider]

Many thanks for the replies so far, but I'm afraid I'm just being told what I already know. Also - BTW - I have corresponded with Richard Laughton for some time. Nothing on the GWF Forum is relevant here.

It seems to be widely agreed that it was Martin Zander who shot down FE2b 6992 10th Oct 1916, but that leaves unanswered > "... what were they [Zander] flying (type and number), and where more precisely did 6992 crash ?"

More importantly, and not (apparently) to be found in books > "The second and more important question is that I want to try and establish the sequence of events between the shooting-down and the burials at Fremicourt. Airmen on both sides tended to be quite respectful with regards to the burial of dead enemy airmen (especially this far behind the front) and our hope would be that some German records might mention the event."

thanks - Tom

[Froggy]

Here is photo the grave of Sgt Ernest N Haxton
at Douchy-les-Ayette British Cemetery
and his photo

[FamousRaider]

Originally Posted by Froggy

Here is photo the grave of Sgt Ernest N Haxton
at Douchy-les-Ayette British Cemetery
and his photo

Unhappy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm terribly sorry but we've had a copy of that photo for years and Haxton's grave has been visited many times. To reiterate what I've already said - with replies so far I'm just being told what I already know.

Without appearing to be ungreatfull it isn't at all helpful to "answer" questions which haven't been asked and just ignore the questions which have been asked . Still unanswered > "... what were they [Zander] flying (type and number), and where more precisely did 6992 crash ?"

More importantly, and not (apparently) to be found in books > "The second and more important question is that I want to try and establish the sequence of events between the shooting-down and the burials at Fremicourt. Airmen on both sides tended to be quite respectful with regards to the burial of dead enemy airmen (especially this far behind the front) and our hope would be that some German records might mention the event."

thanks - Tom

[Graeme]

Boelcke made his claim between Le Sars and Pozières, Le Sars being about 6 Km south-west of Bapaume and Pozières 2 Km further south-west.

Zander made his claim near Beugny, 6 Km north-east of Bapaume; 6992 was reported to have been shot down in flames north-east of Bapaume. If Haxton and Jeffs had tried making it home, they would likely have come down in the vicinity of Frémicourt, this lying between Beugny and Bapaume. This would tie in with the location of their burials.

It would appear that the record of the machine flown by Zander has been lost over the years; Jasta 1 was equipped with a variety of machines including the Fokker E.IV, Fokker D.I and Albatros D.II.

Graeme