Billy H's challenge:Procedural considerations

Gentlemen: When I issued my challenge to S3, I listed six items specifying what that challenge was in the original thread. The essence of that challenge was that S3 had to document both the CHARGE (What the violation(s) were) and the SPECIFICATIONS (the circumstances out of which the charge(s) arose). The original charge against Luke appears to be an act of disobedience raised by the C.O. of the 27th Aero and phoned to Captain Jerry Vasconcells at the forward base at Verdun on 29 September 1918. The specification was that Lt Luke ignored a 'grounding' order. S3 is now introducing another charge that Lt Frank Luke violated the Geneva Convention; the specification is that on 29 September the accused used incendiary ammunition when he strafed German troops in and about the town of Murvaux, and that this ammo, if it did not kill outright caused unecessary suffering to persons merely wounded by this 'inhumane' ammo. These charges are then to be formally presented to the accused (or his representatives, if tried in absentia,which is the case here. The point of order that I am raising here is that S3 is trying his case before he has formally presented his charges/specifications to the forum; and is adding charges as we go along, and we are all bring extraneous arguments before the court. The correct procedure is to get the charges presented and a plea entered by counsel for the said defendant. S3 then must prove 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that both the charges and the specifications are true, and not fictitious. Before we say anything, S3 has to document his charges and his specifications. By documentation we mean something more than a statement from an article or a book that says Luke did this or did that without that information be itself documented. For instance, who witnessed Grant grounding Luke? If Captain Vasconcells was told, why did he let Luke go on this last mission, and why didn't Grant put Vasconcells on report for his disobedience? And why did Hartney, who was at Verdun, let Luke go? As to the alleged violation of the Geneva Convention, S3 has to tell the court the names and rank of the number of KIAs and WIAs, and a statement from a German medic that the rounds were 'inhumane.' In short S3 has to prove that he even shot those troops up in the first place. In a nutshell, then, until prosecutor S3 produces the evidence, we do not have to have to defend charges that are fictitious repetitions of fiction. I am not going S3...Another consideration: S3 has stated in these threads that he won't entertain any military men, as we are all biased, etc. That statement proves that he is not a military man. Furthermore, he doesn't knnow what unnecessary suffering is..Before the War, my sister and I used to pass the gas ward of the Kings County Hospital in Brooklyn. In good weather with the windows open we could hear those doughboys coughing up their lungs. We were too young to understand that these boys were going to die. We talked to them and they would give us pieces of their equipment: helmets, canteens, leggings, gas masks. I put it to you, S3, was that unecessary suffering 20 years after the war? No it wasn,t a violation of the Geneva Convention because gas was legal. Or take someone whose face or guts were shredded by shrapnel distributed by legal artillery. It is time for you, S3, to realize that all the suffering in war is unecessary, and that you have no grounds for call a brave man, a war criminal equivalent to a Haddam Suddein. Get up some evidence, or stop defaming brave men.

[Reinout]

Any flyer was obliged to help the ground war a little by attacking infantry and strong positions if the situation required it or when targets of opportunity presented themselves. FL was on a balloon busting mission therefore he naturally had incendiary ammo. I don't think he violated any Geneva Convention rule (were there any towards planes?). I recall FL shooting at the infantry AFTER his plane suffered a hit from Flak/ground fire. If that is true, I never understood why he'd fire when already going down. Surely he must have realised that the German welcoming committee was going to detract points for that?

Any thoughts, Billy, Stephen?

Kind regards,

Reinout

[stephen]

I can think of only two reasons why FL would strafe the Germans: 1) He must have thought his wound to be fatal and determined that if he was going to die, he was going to make as big a mess as he could in the process. That's not exactly at odds with is personality, you know. Or, 2) his wound actually occured during or shortly after the supposed strafing run. Remember, although we can make educated guesses based on probabilities, no one actually knows if or when FL was hit (in the air).

[Amy]

Some beginning background that I know some will already know...Luke had formed a friendship with Joseph Wehner in a short span of time. J.W. was basically an outcast due to his German background and Luke was his best friend. Through this friendship, Luke and J.W. made a great flying team. When J.W. was killed, by the Germans I might add, Luke was devastated...absolutely devastated. With this great loss Luke intertwined his selfless determination to focus on a goal. His unwavering determination and goal was shooting down balloons and killing Germans. Sorry folks, but if anyone had a problem reading that, this was a war, so t.s. From what I understand, Luke made it perfectly clear that he would never, ever be taken alive by the Germans. Yeah, he most likely had incendiary bullets but so did the Germans. This was a war, I can't stress that enough. For Luke to take off on his own with no regard for his personal welfare (i.e. court martial), to fulfill his own mission by shooting down the enemy, to strafe troops after being hit or not, and engaging in a shootout (or at least drawing his gun) is in complete order with Frank Luke's do-or-die personality. Luke did his job extraordinarily well, he died for his country, he deserved every bit of his MoH, now for God's sake, let the man and his do-or-die personality rest in peace.

Why is it that the Allied pilots are always the ones to have their actions and reputations put through a shredder? I've seen Mannock, Bishop, Rickenbacker, and Luke all stuck in the hot seat around here. No one would dare challenge Voss's, Gonterman, Allmenroeder's, etc. repuations/actions. If Luke's family would have stayed in Germany, therefore, Luke joining the German Air Force, and this exact same scenario happened the other way around, we wouldn't be in this debate right now as he would be deemed untouchable. However, the fact of the matter is, pilots were the same on both sides. Whatever perceived "mean" or "cruel" or "unlawful" action that took place by the Allies, there are darn good odds that a similar or same "mean" or "cruel" or "unlawful" action took place by the Germans.

Stayed tuned for next week's "Allied Pilot's Actions & Reputation Shredded". Featured pilot will be James McCudden.

Amy

P.S. Sorry Billy, this post may not technically belong here but there are so many F.L. threads, didn't know where else to put it.

Billy H.,
You have brought out some very good points, and Amy has corroborated what I've mentioned before about CERTAIN tendencies on this Forum. It appears that the Allied Aces are fair game for disparagement, BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE ... DO NOT, I SAY AGAIN, DO NOT GO AFTER THE REPUTATIONS OF ANY OF GERMANY'S GOLDEN BOYS!!! You will become a socially unacceptable outcast (such as myself) and subject to the Holy Order of the IGAF (all bow towards Mecca) Supporters scorn!
Well, I enjoy being one who has my own opinions, and not a member of the flock! If that makes me an outcast...so be it! But I look at things with a common sense attitude (like there is a dark side to all humans, German Aces included) and we should not expect to be able to "slam" on just one side's Aces. This going after Frank Luke is pure scurrilous folly and of the lowest order. For this Spook 3 character to say that military men cannot testify due to predjudice, is setting himself up as judge, jury, and executioner of a better man's reputation than this guy probably ever had on his best day. I feel pretty strongly about this as all can tell. Sure I've made some clinical remarks about MvR's personality and tactics (I admit that), but I've NEVER questioned his courage. I supported my views as best as I could. But for Spook 3 to make these remarks about FL is pure Horse puckey! He knows no procedural actions, and will never be able to prove his allegations BEYOND THE SHADOW OF A DOUBT! I say let Spook #3 be put under the same stresses and conditions as Frank Luke then, and only then, will he be qualified to make a judgement call on this heoric figure's actions.
Regards,
Jim
P.S. REALITY IS A HARSH MISTRESS, AND IF YOU ARE AFRAID TO DO SOMETHING BECAUSE IT'S TOO DIFFICULT, OR IT MIGHT MAKE YOU UNPOPULAR...THEN YOU LOSE! ... The late Arleigh "31 Knot" Burke, RADM.(Ret)

[Vin]

Amy

You should post it to

http://www.meddybemps.com/5.1.html


Vin

[Amy]

I think the real issue here is that you're jealous of Frank Luke, for whatever specific reason, which you in turn mask with an utter loathing for the man, otherwise you wouldn't be going off in such a personal negative manner and be so adamant about squashing any stories that say Luke was anything short of a hero.

Amy

[Vin]

It is called skepticism, Amy. You do not have to believe everything you are told, especially when the facts just do not bear out the exaggerated claims.


Vin

[Amy]

Vin:

I still remain "skeptical" of your motives. What are these 'facts' you speak of?

Amy

[Vin]

The facts (all gleaned from this site) are

He joined the 27th Squadron on 25 July. He did not achieve his first victory until 12 September, 50 days later. Even then his first 10 victories were against balloons. Now there may be considerable danger in attacking a balloon from anti aircraft fire and scouts but they are essentially stationary, big and do not fire back. Indeed, he only shot down 4 aircraft. On 29 September he died. He had a productive life of 17 days, achieving victories on 7 of these days. Much is made of the shootout with the Germans when he crashed. How heroic etc. But one who has researched it (Billy H) concludes that the shootout did not happen.

If you look at the lists of "aces", you will see that there are hundreds of pilots who claimed between 5 and 18 victories. Luke was a pilot with sufficient capacity to shoot down 14 balloons, at least 3 of which were shared, (with Wehner) and 4 aircraft but without sufficient capacity to survive more than a bit over 2 months. He is no greater a hero than any other pilot who flew and fought during WW 1.



Vin