Fokker D.VII Marking Help

[daniel0005]

Hey folks. Could use some pointers.

Browsing the Paul R. Stockton album on the National Air and Space Museum site and came across this Fokker D.VII Werke number (O.A.W) 6458. You can view it here:

http://edan.si.edu/slideshow/slidesh...X-0283/9A11573
Go to page 13 and select the third thumbnail.

The caption states it was shot down by a Lt. in the 12th Aero but does not mention the Lt's name.

The 12th had three confirmed aerial victories during the war and a few unconfirmed. Working on the assumption, possession of physical evidence would result in a confirmed kill I am ruling out all but the three confirmed. (big assumption I know).

If so then it was likely forced down on the 28th of July by Lt. Stephen Thompson (observer) or Lt. Dogan Arthur and Lt. Fleeson on either 12 September or 30 October 1918.

Stockton joined the 12th Aero Squadron on 27 June 1918 and remained with the unit through the end of the war so he would have been present during all three victories.

It's a long shot but I am trying to can pin down to which Jasta this aircraft was assigned.

Additionally, if some one can point me in the direction of a resource I can use to determine which Jastas were stationed where and when I'd really appreciate it.

Finally, has anyone seen or heard of a Fokker with brown and white checkered markings? It was involved in an engagement with Lt. Dogan Arthur during the Meuse Argonne Campaign on 30 October 1918.

Thank you for the help.

[saxon lions]

Not being an expert but it looks like the mauve and green material from the undercarriage wing. presumably the writing was added later

[Volker_Nemsch]

.
... the book " The Jasta War Chronology" in conncetion with German Jasta losses on the following date:

28. July 1918
12. September 1918
30. October 1918

For 28.07.18 there are no losses mentioned on the German side.

For 12.09.18 (the beginning of the St.Mihiel offensive*) there are no losses on the German side.

For 30.10.18 there was the loss of Uffz. Josef Nebl of Jasta 23, who was killed in action. The problem is, that I have no idea where Jasta 23 was stationed then...

*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saint-Mihiel
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataille_de_Saint-Mihiel
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlacht_von_St._Mihiel

.

[Graeme]

I have it that Jasta 23 was based at Harmignies between 8 October and 5 November 1918, operating with 2 Armee.

On 30 October, Vzfw Michael Hutterer claimed a Sopwith Snipe at 11:20/12:20 over Seebourg, south-east of Valenciennes; this was probably Camel F3242, 210 Sqn, flown by Lieut A Buchanan DFC who was taken prisoner.

In his log for Jasta 23, Rick Duiven notes 'Uffz Josef Nebl is KIA, did not return from a war flight.'

There was a lot of RAF activity at this time, but narrowing claims to the relevant area we have:

Lieut K R Unger, 210 Sqn, Fokker DVII crashed east of Rombies [3 Km north of Sebourg] at 11:15/12:15 -

Capt S C Joseph, 210 Sqn, Fokker DVII crashed Rombies - Estreaux at 11:15/12:15 -

Capt V F Symondson, 210 Sqn, Fokker DVII crashed south of Onnezies [6 Km north-east of Sebourg] at 11:20/12:20 -

A possibility that this was an RAF victory.

Graeme

[Volker_Nemsch]

.
... of the Fokker D.VII would fit into the historical scheme.

The Fokker D.VII with the serial number Fok. D.VII 6458 (O.A.W.) (/18) would have been one of a batch of 350 machines (serial numbers 6300/18 to 6649/18) built by OAW (Ostdeutsche Albatros Werke)...

.

[rsanz]

Originally Posted by saxon lions

Not being an expert but it looks like the mauve and green material from the undercarriage wing. presumably the writing was added later

Note that, despite the many illustrations and replicas featuring it, no Fokker D.VII undercarriage axle wings were covered in lozenge fabric in WW1 (that I have ever seen evidence for).

This fabric is from an aileron or tailplane component.

Fokker D.VII (OAW) 6441/18 served with Jasta 62 and 6467/18 served with Jasta 71 but this does not help you with 6458/18 other than to confirm that it was from within a group of numbers that were actually issued to units and not an aircraft finished post war. Possibly it could have come from one of those units.

[Gregvan]

Hi,
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but....

Just because Stockton labeled the piece of Flugzeugstoff (aircraft printed camouflage fabric, from Fokker D.VII 6458/18) as coming from a Fokker downed by a 12th Aero Squadron Lt., doesn't necessarily mean that it actually did. And I'm not intending to cast aspersions on Stockton, who was obviously a brave, dedicated and resourceful officer.

However, I think it's just as likely that this piece was 'souvenired' from a D.VII that was found after the war. The 12th Aero Squadron was based in Trier during the occupation in 1919, on the big field near the Zeppelin shed - as photos in the album show. There were 90-some German aircraft in that shed, many of them D.VIIs.



These aircraft, and others abandoned by the Germans, provided lots of opportunities for scavenging souvenirs. I have seen several other fabric pieces taken from surrendered aircraft post-war that were labeled as having been "shot down in combat" by so-and-so.

Also, it seems to me that Stockton added some of the captions to this album years after the war, and maybe his memory wasn't always spot on..Why didn't he mention the name of the "Lt." who shot down the Fokker? Maybe he didn't remember it or other details about how he acquired the piece.

There's another piece of lozenge fabric in the album, with a large "2" painted on it.


The style of the "2" looks like this piece might have come from an Albatros-built D.VII.

I'm just being my usual skeptical self, and not trying to offend anyone. Trying to match this fabric piece with one of the three confirmed victories scored by 12th Aero crews might be a futile endeavor, for any number of reasons. Trying to match any Allied victory claim with a specific German loss is always fraught with difficulty as many threads and posts on this forum will confirm. Many American confirmations were, frankly, based on less than solid evidence. Also, even if a German plane was "shot down", it may have made a forced landing or even a crash landing that the pilot or crew survived, and thus little or no German records survive of that particular incident.

Again, I'm not attempting to impugn the memory or reputation of Paul R.Stockton or of the valiant crews of the 12th Aero Sqdn. In fact, Alan Toelle and I produced an article about the Salmsons of the 1st and 12th Aero that was published in Over the Front several years ago.

By the way, in regard to Dogan Arthur's description of a Fokker with "brown and white checkered markings"...This may simply have been a hurried impression of glimpses of the printed "lozenge" camouflage fabric, made in the heat of combat. I've seen a number of American combat reports describing "checkered" markings of various colors on Fokkers, and I think many of them resulted from lozenge fabric. However, some Jagdstaffeln did indeed feature checkerboard markings as unit or individual insignia.

Good luck with your research.

[Gregvan]

Hi,

Just in case this might be of interest, here is some information about what German Jagdstaffeln are known to have encountered the 12TH Aero Squadron.

On 28 July 1918, the Salmson of 2Lt AP Baker (WIA, POW) and 2Lt J C Lumsden (KIA) was forced to land behind German lines at 7 PM, after a very brave defense. The Salmson of 1Lt J C Miller (died of wounds) and 1Lt S W Thompson (WIA) was also forced down near Fére-en-Tardenois. This latter crew may have been the victims of either Ltn. Carl Bolle or Ltn. Hermann Frommherz, both of Jasta Boelcke – two of the most successful aces of a very formidable unit.

By late October 1918, the 12th was across the lines from Jagdgeschwader Nr II, another very successful and potent formation, that accounted for a lot of American aircraft.

On 29 October, Salmson 1180 (coded ‘15’) was shot down behind the German lines near Campigneulle. 1Lt S W Beauclerk was KIA, and his observer 1Lt R A Patterson was WIA and taken POW. They were almost certainly the victims of Ltn. Joachim von Ziegesar of Jasta 15 of JG II. In 1963, Patterson wrote a letter to historian Russell Manning in which he said, “A dark blue Fokker got under us and killed Lt. Beauclerc (sic). …” As Jasta 15 Fokkers had dark blue fuselages and tails with red noses, it all fits. We published a very nice article on Beauclerk, by Robert Betz and Stephen Miller, in “Over the Front” Volume 30 No. 1, 2015.

The next day, 30 October, the Salmson of 1Lt. H D Muller (WIA/POW) and 1Lt. J M Foy (injured, POW) suffered engine failure, was attacked by Fokkers and was brought down near Buzancy. They were very likely the victims of Ltn. Georg von Hantelmann, another very proficient Jasta 15 pilot – he claimed a Salmson at Buzancy.

The Fokkers of JG II did not have a ‘brown and white checkered” paint scheme (and neither did those of Jasta Boelcke), but the wings of their aircraft still displayed the multicolored “lozenge” printed camouflage scheme.

[ONEALM]

Again, I'm not attempting to impugn the memory or reputation of Paul R.Stockton or of the valiant crews of the 12th Aero Sqdn. In fact, Alan Toelle and I produced an article about the Salmsons of the 1st and 12th Aero that was published in Over the Front several years ago

Good thing Greg, Stockton was from New Jersey you know...

Daniel - Greg's right on the money with his observations. I've seen lots of albums with erroneous captions, missed dates, etc. So a little skepticism is a healthy thing.

Maybe we'll be able to match that serial to a known Fokker at Trier at some point to answer the question, but given Stocktons artistic ability, can we first measure the height of the characters in the serial number and see if this strip was in fact cut from that Fokker or if he painted in a serial later on a strip to include in the album ? The serial looks a little small to be from the side panel of the airplane to me - maybe a stencil from elsewhere ?

I'll see what I can find - Maybe Chuck Thoms here on the 'drome who has documented a few of the Trier Fokkers - will know something about that particular machine.

-Mike

[Gregvan]

Hi Guys,
To quote Mike: "The serial looks a little small to be from the side panel of the airplane to me - maybe a stencil from elsewhere ?"

Absolutely. As rsanz said, this piece of fabric with the "Fok. DVII. (O.A.W.) 6458" stenciling comes from either an aileron or the tailplane/horizontal stabilizer, or the elevators. Each of those components on OAW-built D.VIIs had the military serial number stenciled on in small white characters.

Here's an example from the underside of the starboard aileron of the famous Knowlton Fokker D.VII in Canada:



Even though the fuselage of this famous (and very original) D.VII is Albatros-built 6810/18, the ailerons, upper wing, tailplane and elevators all come from other OAW-built D.VIIs.