SPAD S.XII - sole ace

[Knusel]

Good evening Gentlemen,

Fonck is the only SPAD S.XII ace. I wonder if we can determine the SPAD S.XII scores of those who flew that plane but didn't become an ace in it. Ace known to have flown the SPAD S.XII are:

• René Fonck 16 kills
• Georges Guynemer 4 kills
• Georges Madon 2 kills
• Armand de Turenne 1 kill
• Francois Battesti 1 kill
• Charles Nungesser ?
• Gabriel Guérin ?
• Albert Deullin ?
• Henri Hay de Slade ?
• Marcel Hugues ?
• Fernand Henri Chavannes ?
• Lionel de Marmier ?
• Benjamin Bozon-Verduraz ?
• David Putnam 0 kills
• Charles Biddle 0 kills
• Georges Raymond 0 kills

Michael

[AlbertWarsawPoland]

René Fonck - 16 conf. + 8 unconf. (according to Christophe Cony; David Méchin identified 16 conf. + 5 unconf.; we have to wait probably a few years for Ch. Cony's biography of Fonck...)

Georges Guynemer - 4 conf. + 1 unconf.

Georges Madon - 2 conf. + 1 unconf.

Joseph Marie Xavier de Sevin - 2 conf. + between 1 and 3 unconf. (needs more research!), maybe more

Armand de Turenne - 1 conf.

Francois Battesti - 1 conf., maybe more?

Gabriel Guérin - hard to say (0 - 2 - more?)- if D. Méchin's suggestion that his victory at 10:35 on February 3rd 1918 could have been scored on SPAD XII is right, then also his second victory on that day (5 minutes later) must have been scored on SPAD XII

Marcel Hugues - most probably 0 (surely not more than 3)

Benjamin Bozon-Verduraz - 0? (surely not more than 2)

Albert Deullin - 0 or 1 maximum (only his last victory could have been scored on SPAD XII, but no info)

Henri Hay de Slade - probably 0 (didn't like this plane)

Big question is about Charles Nungesser - used SPAD XII for sure, many SPAD victories, but we don't know which type

Fernand Henri Chavannes & Lionel de Marmier - no idea, from 0 to a few!

David Putnam, Charles Biddle & Georges Raymond - 0 for sure

[Knusel]

Good evening Albert,

Nungesser's SPAD S.XII score is most interesting to me, too. He is known to have flown it in July 1918.
Battesti's plane for his last kill is variously indicated as "SPAD S.XIII" (Denis), "SPAD S.XII" (Guttman) and "probably SPAD S.XII" (Méchin). Who is right ?

Cheers,

Michael

[AlbertWarsawPoland]

Originally Posted by Knusel

Good evening Albert,

Nungesser's SPAD S.XII score is most interesting to me, too. He is known to have flown it in July 1918.
Battesti's plane for his last kill is variously indicated as "SPAD S.XIII" (Denis), "SPAD S.XII" (Guttman) and "probably SPAD S.XII" (Méchin). Who is right ?

Cheers,

Michael

It is possible we will never know Nungesser's SPAD XII score - after 100 years a few great researchers were not able to establish it.

I believe J. Guttman and D. Méchin that it is highly probable that Battesti's last victory was scored on SPAD XII. After reading again, I think it was his only one - D. Méchin wrote that Battesti used SPAD XII since September.
Maybe on Albin Denis' site it's a typo.

[Knusel]

Good morning Albert,

Nungesser scored one kill in July, the month in which he flew the SPAD S.XII.
If my memory serves me well forum member Stephen once wrote that nobody except Fonck and Guynemer scored more than three SPAD S.XII kills. Therefore I think Nungesser's SPAD S.XII score is 1-3.
Gabriel Guérin's SPAD S.XII score is also important for his rank within the top ten SPAD S.VII ace list:
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=70814

Cheers,

Michael

[AlbertWarsawPoland]

It is remarkable that most probably none of SPAD XIIs was destroyed by the enemy or captured!

[Knusel]

It is true that only 20 were built ?

[AlbertWarsawPoland]

Originally Posted by Knusel

It is true that only 20 were built ?

No one knows for sure, but this seems probable, most authors state "probably around 20". I read somewhere that there were 62 cannon-armee SPADs. Because there were 40 SPAD XIVs, it's possible there were 22 SPAD XIIs. I think 11 or 12 serial numbers are known.

[Knusel]

Good evening Albert,

Jon Guttman's book includes a list of 13 Squadrons that had SPAD S.XII's.
But it's not complete, as you see here:

SPAD S.XII pilots by unit
unit/name/SPAD S.XII score/total

• SPA3 Georges Guynemer 4 (53), Benjamin Bozon-Verduraz 0-2 (10), Georges Raymond 0 (5)
• SPA12 Armand de Turenne 1 (15)
• SPA15 Gabriel Guérin 0-3 (23)
• SPA26 Xavier de Sevin 2-3 (12)
• SPA38 Georges Madon 2 (41)
• SPA48 ?
• SPA65 Charles Nungesser 1-3 (43)
• SPA73 Albert Deullin 0-1 (20), François Battesti 1 (7)
• SPA95 Marcel Hugues 0-3 (12)
• SPA103 René Fonck 16 (75)
• SPA112 Lionel de Marmier 0-3 (8), Fernand Chavannes 0-3 (7)
• SPA153 ?
• SPA159 Henri Hay de Slade 0-3 (19)
• 13th USAS Charles Biddle 0 (7)
• 139th USAS David Putnam 0 (13)

The serials of Bozon's Escadrille 3 planes are known.
http://www.as14-18.net/Bozon-Verduraz
Is none of them a SPAD S.XII ?

Cheers,

Michael

[AlbertWarsawPoland]

Hello Michael,

I made a similar list and unfortunately I don't have more info. The only known SPAD XII serial number in Escadrille 3 is Guynemer's S.382. I don't know what happened to it after his death - whether it was used by someone else or not.

Cheers,
Albert