Jasta 51 enquiry

[oatsnz]

I'm currently having a local artist paint an action from a WW1 incident. My father-in-law, a gunner/observer flying in a DH9 with 108 Squadron RFC/RAF was shot down (he and the pilot survived) over Belgium by Karl Plauth Jasta51 flying a Fokker DV11

Can anyone help with the aircraft markings likely to have been used on the above aircraft.....I'm struggling?

[R Gannon]

Hi

I don't know if you are aware, but in an article in C&C GB Int vol 25 #3 (Josef Jacobs diary part 2) there is a copy of a Kofl 4 document dated 24 Aug 18 which provides the unit markings (with drawings) for all JadgGp 6 Jastas (Js 7, Js 16, Js 20, Js 40, Js 51 & Js 56). For Js 51, if my limited German is any good, one is told: Lozenge fuselage, white rudder and a green & black tail (green left side & black right side). Undoubtedly Plauth had some personal marking on fuselage - anyone?

What date was their downing & how do you know it was Plauth?

Russ

[Graeme]

Reckon it's 10 October 1918; as far as I can see, Plauth claimed five de Havillands but the only one in Belgium was on this date over Roulers (the other four locations are in France).

I have no record of any RAF DH losses on this date - all the others were DH4s flown by the USAS.

Graeme

[oatsnz]

Thanks, RG and Graeme...

That marking gen for the Fokker is excellent, I don't think I can expect more detail on Plauth's aircraft.

How do I know about Plauth's action? it came from 'The Sky Their Battlefield' (Henshaw.) I have a copy of the relevant page.

I think the best way to fill in the detail of my interest here is to email you both a copy my ''Pilot Story''

(now how do I go about that?)

[R Gannon]

Hi

Ah I see we are talking 1 Oct 18 and D5847 with crew Matheson & Everliegh pow. I'm not real convinced about the Js 51 Plauth link proposed in TSTBF - for a start we have no time & location for the Plauth claim, whilst his own post war writing only offers this:

'Today a De Havilland, shot down in flames.'

The bigger picture was a 10 strong 108 Sqn bombing formation attacked by a reported 33 Fokkers, most whom would seem to have been from the Marine JG - MFJ 2, MFJ 3, MFJ 4 & MFJ 5 with six paid claims for four downed DH9's, but just which pilot/s were credited with which DH9 is impossible to say, on present data. Js 51 may well have got involved, but Plauth's own reckoning of his DH 'in flames' rather rules out D5847.

I see 108 Sqn crews claimed 5 Fokkers in return, and indeed we know at the very least that three Marine JG I pilots were wounded (one fatally), but there was also an interrelated combat involving 210 Sqn Camels who put in 6 Fokker claims of their own against two losses (there were 3 Marine claims for Camels).

Russ

PS - as for Marine JG colours - hmmmm.

[regular122]

From the summer of 1918 on, the Marine Feld Jastas typically wore standard lozenge print wings and fuselage and the vertical stabilizer and rudder were white. Personal markings usually were wheel covers, side emblems, and engine cowl. Steve

[rsanz]

Originally Posted by regular122

From the summer of 1918 on, the Marine Feld Jastas typically wore standard lozenge print wings and fuselage and the vertical stabilizer and rudder were white. Personal markings usually were wheel covers, side emblems, and engine cowl. Steve

They are Albatros and OAW built D.VII and they came with white fins and rudders from the factories. I don't think you could call that a unit marking.

[oatsnz]

Thanks everyone for your input, I'll take on board Russ's comment about Plauth or maybe not Plauth!

As for the subject of my main enquiry, if I'd read the combat report more thoroughly I would have seen the reported EA markings;

'' thin black and white stripes on the fuselage. Black and white cheques on planes''

So I'll get the artist to use these markings together with some of Russ's suggestions. As for the DH9 I'll go for the Duxford version.

Incidentally, this thread is first cousin to an older thread by Alex Matheson
grandson of the DH9 pilot. See, alexoflewes

Attaching the Observers letter home from the POW camp to his parents

[Graeme]

Sorry to everyone for typing 10 October instead of 1 October and then, rather than picking up on my mistake, went off on a wild goose chase looking for DH casualties on 10 October!

I'll be glad when I've shaken off this cold and can think straight again.

Graeme

[R Gannon]

The observers letter from the pow camp paints oh so familiar tale; their DH9was cut off by 5 EA and the shot down - a far cry from the popular mythology which still to this day attempts to portray the Jadgstaffeln as fearlessly fighting against odds of 5 to 1. Maybe 4 to 1 in the overall scheme of things late 1918, but never in the actual combats, where the Germans never willing entered into combats unless they had a localised superiority of numbers - sound tactics, but hardly mirroring the mythology. On a similar vein, this again beggars why the Germans did not award shared victories, like all the other combatants, as the hard but all too avoided truth, is that the greater majority of German victories were indeed group efforts.

Cheers Russ