100 years ago today - 18 October 1917

[Graeme]

THURSDAY, 18 OCTOBER 1917

General Headquarters, October 19th.

“On the 18th inst. the early morning was brilliantly fine, but at 9 a.m. low, thick clouds drifted up from the west. Reconnaissances, artillery work, and photography were carried out by our aeroplanes, and in the course of the day 2½ tons of bombs were dropped on a large gun position near Douai, on railway sidings near Ghent, and on various billets and hutments.

“At night a further ton of bombs were dropped by us on Courtrai station and on the German aerodrome in that vicinity.

“In air fighting six hostile machines were brought down and four were driven down out of control. Another German machine was shot down by anti-aircraft gunfire. Seven of our machines are missing.”

Weather very fine until 9 a.m.; overcast from then till noon, afterwards low clouds.

Four reconnaissances were carried out by Corps Squadrons and one successful photographic reconnaissance by No 57 Squadron. A total of 408 photographs were taken.

Artillery Co-operation — Thirty-seven hostile batteries were engaged for destruction and nine were neutralised with aeroplane observation; three gun-pits were destroyed, nine damaged, 19 explosions and nine fires caused. 138 hostile batteries were reported by zone call, 66 of these were by the 4th Brigade.

Bombing – 1st Brigade: Machines of No 18 Squadron dropped 14 20-lb bombs on Esquerchin, four 112-lb bombs on Courcelles and eight 25-lb bobms on Seclin.

3rd Brigade: Machines of No 59 Squadron dropped 32 25-lb bombs on a big gun position north of Brebières. Corps machines dropped five 25-lb bombs on various trench points.

4th Brigade: 21 20-lb bombs were dropped on various targets.

5th Brigade: No 57 Squadron dropped on 230-lb bomb, six 112-lb and 12 20-lb bombs on Oosnieuwkerke, several bursts being observed. Corps Squadrons dropped 14 20-lb bombs on Spriet and on various targets.

9th Wing: No 25 Squadron dropped two 112-lb bombs on Rumbeke and eight on Melle sidings (near Ghent).

Miscellaneous – A total of 3,300 rounds were fired at the enemy’s troops in trenches and in the open by Brigades as follows: 1st Brigade, 850; 2nd Brigade, 100; 4th Brigade, 1,800; 5th Brigade,400.

Admiralty, October 19th.

“On the morning of the 18th inst. a bombing raid was carried out by naval aircraft on Varssenaere Aerodrome. Many bombs were dropped with satisfactory result. All our machines returned safely.”

Weather still unsettled.

A photographic reconnaissance to Zeebrugge by Flight Sub-Lieut Ovens and Observer-Lieut Chapman of No 2 Squadron was carried out, and plates exposed successfully.

Usual Fleet Protective Patrols and escorts to bombers and reconnaissance machines.

Bombing raid by day - No 5 Squadron, D.H.4’s: eleven 65-lb, two 50-lb and sixty 16-lb bombs were dropped on Varssenaere Aerodrome. Bombs fell well among sheds and hangars. A.A. fire was heavy, nearly all the machines being hit in several places.

Enemy Aircraft

There was a decided decrease in EA activity from the 17th inst., though several large formations were encountered in the vicinity of the Roulers - Menin Railway.

2nd Lt J Highman & 1/AM S Hookway, 5 Sqn, EA in flames - 2nd Lt J Highman & 1/AM S Hookway, of the Detached Flight of No 5 Squadron, whilst on photography, were attacked by a hostile machine into which they fired bursts from a range varying from 200 to 400 yards. The hostile machine burst into flames and was seen to crash into the ground

Lt R T C Hoidge, 56 Sqn, two-seater crashed east of Comines at 08:10/09:10
Lt R T C Hoidge, 56 Sqn, two-seater out of control Wervicq at 08:10/09:10

Lt R Hoidge, No 56 Squadron, with his formation, attacked four EA two-seaters with two Spads. The two-seater escaped and Lt Hoidge returned west and waited for the two-seaters to return. Two came back, one of which he attacked and brought down between the road and river east of Comines. He then attacked and drove down another two-seater completely out of control

Capt H G E Luchford & Lt V R S White, 20 Sqn, Albatros Scout crashed Houthem - Ten-Brielen at 08:45/09:45
Capt H G E Luchford & Lt V R S White, 20 Sqn, DFW C crashed west of Dadizeele at 09:00/10:00

While on Offensive Patrol, Bristol Fighters of No 20 Squadron engaged several formations of EA. Capt Luchford & Lt White attacked three which were diving on an R.E.8. Two went east diving steeply, but into the third they managed to fire 200 rounds at a range of 20 yards. The EA fell and was seen to crash. Shortly afterwards they attacked another which they attacked, firing 200 rounds at point-blank range. The enemy machine fell and crashed. Both three results were confirmed by another formation

2nd Lt A Koch, 70 Sqn, Albatros Scout crashed Westroosebeke at 09:10/10:10

Flt Sub-Lt S M Kinkead and Flt Sub-Lt J H Forman, 1N Sqn, DFW C out of control east of Poelcappelle at 10:30/11:30 - A DFW two-seater was driven down out of control by Flight Lt Kinkead and Flight Sub-Lt Forman, Naval Squadron No 1, after it had received 400 rounds at close range

Lt J D Payne, 29 Sqn, Albatros C out of control north-west of Menin at 11:05/12:05 - 2nd Lt Payne, No 29 Squadron, fired 60 rounds into a hostile two-seater which turned on its back and went down completely out of control

Lt G A Hyde and 2nd Lt M E Gonne, 54 Sqn, Albatros Scout crashed Leke at 14:30/15:30 - Lt G Hyde and 2nd Lt M Gonne, No 54 Squadron, attacked an EA at close range. It went down in a steep dive and was seen to crash by a Belgian aviator

Flt Cdr R P Minifie, 1N Sqn, Gotha G out of control north of Passchendaele at 14:30/15:30 - Fifteen Gothas escorted by 10 scouts, were encountered by a patrol of Naval Squadron No 1. Flight Commander Minifie fired 250 rounds into one of the Gothas which nose-dived vertically for over 2,000 feet into the clouds and was lost to sight

Lt R Winnicott, 41 Sqn, Albatros Scout out of control Arleux at 15:30/16:30
2nd Lt R M Whitehead, 41 Sqn, Albatros Scout out of control Arleux at 15:30/16:30

During a combat between eight machines of No 41 Squadron and 10 Albatros scouts, Lt R Winnicott and 2nd Lt R Whitehead each drove down one of the EA out of control

2nd Lt T Colvill-Jones & Lt L H Phelps, 20 Sqn, Albatros Scout crashed Gheluvelt at 16:10/17:10 - another patrol of No 20 Squadron engaged six or seven EA. 2nd Lt Colville-Jones & Lt Phelps drove one down completely out of control which was seen to crash by an anti-aircraft battery

Casualties

B/201196 Cpl H Burrell (Kia) & 1/AM J McLean (Wia), 2 Sqn, AW FK8 B248 – shot up in combat

Lt J D Gilbert (Kia), 56 Sqn, SE5a B528 – took off 08:10/09:10 and last seen in combat with EA over Bas Warneton going west into clouds on offensive patrol

Lt G B Shone (Wia; dow 19-Oct-17), 56 Sqn, SE5a B588 – took off 08:10/09:10 then came down and crashed absolutely near St Julien after combat with EA on offensive patrol; usually said to be Ltn d R Helmuth Dilthey, Js27, 5th victory [east of Klerken – Ypres at 08:40/09:40] or Vzfw Willi Kampe, Js27, 3rd victory [west of Paschendaele at 08:50/09:50]

2nd Lt G W Forbes (Kia), 24 Sqn, DH5 A9494 – took off 07:45/08:45 and last seen with patrol at 8,000 feet over Nieuport at 08:30/09:30 on offensive patrol

2nd Lt B B Perry (Pow) & 2nd Lt C H Bartlett (Pow), 22 Sqn, Bristol F.2B A7125 – took off 07:30/08:30 and last seen engaged with EA over Ardoye at 08:45/09:45 on offensive patrol

2nd Lt C E Ferguson (Kia) & 2nd Lt A D Lennox (Kia), 22 Sqn, Bristol F.2B A7247 – took off 07:30/08:30 and last seen engaged with EA over Ardoye at 08:45/09:45 on offensive patrol

Capt H Patch (Pow; dow 19-Oct-17) & 1254 Pte R Spensley (Pow), 22 Sqn, Bristol F.2B A7264 - last seen engaged with EA over Ardoye at 08:45/09:45 on offensive patrol

The most likely claims would seem to be Ltn Erich Löwenhardt, Js10, 7th victory [Ardooie – Arboise at 08:45/09:45], Obfm Kurt Schönfelder, Js7, 3rd victory [Ingelmunster at 08:45/09:45] and Ltn d R Hans Klein, Js10, 20th victory [Staden at 08:55/09:55]

2nd Lt S M Park (Pow), 84 Sqn, SE5a B546 - last seen over Poelcapelle at 09:20/10:20 engaged with one EA on escort to bomb raid on Thielt; Ltn d R Ernst Udet, Js37, 14th victory [Deûlémont at 09:35/10:35] ?

2nd Lt A H Hepworth (Wia), 70 Sqn, Camel B2429 – took off 11:45/12:45 then force landed Sh28.B.30.C.98 [north-west of Ypres] at 12:45/13:45 after combat with EA on outer offensive patrol

2nd Lt G H Swann (Kia), 41 Sqn, DH5 A9406 - last seen going down under control north-west of Bois de Bourlon at 16:00/17:00 on offensive patrol; Uffz Ulrich Neckel, Js2, 3rd victory [Boursies at 15:40/16:40]

2nd Lt J Cushny (Ok), 41 Sqn, DH5 A9465 - landed Lealvillers at 16:05/17:05 after shot through by EA on DOP

Graeme

[MASTIFF]

JWC shows Vzfw Kampe with 2 victories this date. ATL gives these as:

3rd victory, SE5a, Ypres, 0950hrs. B528, 56 Sqn.
4th victory, SE5a, W Passcendaele, 0955hrs. B588, 56 Sqn.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other claims this date:

Ltn P Lotz, Js7, Camel, Ramskapelle, 0910hrs, first victory.

Ltn H Kunz, Js7, Camel, SW Thourout, 0945hrs, 3rd victory.

Ltn J Jacobs, Js7, DH4, Zillebeke See, 0950hrs, 9th victory.

Vfw R Eck, Js3, DH5, Wildermann, 0955hrs, 2nd victory. JWC links this with the Forbes loss.

Ltn W von Bulow, Js36, Spad, E Passchendaele, 1045hrs, 22nd victory. Probably Spad VII #1118 of Spa.73, MdL P Jolivet, KIA.

Ltn H Contag, Js29, balloon, Oostvlederen, 1402hrs, first victory. French 81e Cie d'A.

Ltn H Bongartz, Js36, RE8, Molenhoek, 1505hrs, 16th victory.

Vfw L Reimann, Js41, Spad, Altmunsterol, (no time), first victory.

Ltn H Hoyer, Js36, BF2b, Moorslede, (no time), unconfirmed.

Note: Uffz Neckel (above post) should read Js12, not Js2.


Losses:

Ltn Xavier Dannhuber, Js26, WIA, upper arm. No other info.

Obltn Otto Schmidt, Js29, seriously WIA, 1400hrs, by ground fire during balloon attack, no location given.


Tony

[josquin]

Mastiff lists Ltn. Bongartz with a claim for an R.E.8 but Graeme does not
list any R.E.8 losses on this date. Also, Mastiff lists an u/c claim by Ltrn.
Hans Hoyer for a Bristol F.2b at Moorslede. Any ideas who the RFC aircrews
may be? The only two-seater claims for 18 October are the 3 claims for
22 Squadron Brisfits by Loewenhardt, Schoenfelder and Hans Klein and
the 2 Squadron AW FK8 of Burrell & McLean. Graeme did not give a location
for the combat involving Burrell & McLean, so how likely is it that Bongartz
(claiming an R.E.8 at Molenhoek) or Hoyer (with his u/c Moorslede claim)
were responsible?
Researching Burrell & McLean is more difficult than most. No RAF Museum
casualty cards cite a wounding for a J. McLean on 18 October 1917; only
a "wounded" for 14237 AM2 J. McLean, in France, on 30 September 1917, and
no squadron or circumstances are noted. This is AM2 James McLean, who
joined the R.F.C. 12 December 1915, trade was a rigger, and he was
listed in the RAF Muster Roll in April, 1918. Yet 14237 may not be the
2 Squadron man wounded on 18 October. B201196 H. Burrell is Harold Burrell,
born 20 November 1897 at Lytham, Lancashire, from St, Anne's-on-Sea,
Lancs.when he enlisted in 16th Battalion of the Rifle Brigade & attached
to the R.F.C. The squadron record book would be helpful to learn more
about McLean and the combat on 18 October.

Josquin

[Graeme]

Hi Tony

"JWC shows Vzfw Kampe with 2 victories this date. ATL gives these as:

3rd victory, SE5a, Ypres, 0950hrs. B528, 56 Sqn.
4th victory, SE5a, W Passcendaele, 0955hrs. B588, 56 Sqn."

It's tempting to match Kampe to both losses, but without times for the RFC casualties its impossible to say for sure. Dilthey's claim, although for a 'Sopwith 1', is in the right time-frame and general area and since no Camels were lost, it's a reasonable assumption that it was another case of mis-identification and he actually attacked one of the SE5s.

Other claims this date:

Ltn P Lotz, Js7, Camel, Ramskapelle, 0910hrs, first victory - Ltn d R Paul Lotz; no matching casualty.

Ltn H Kunz, Js7, Camel, SW Thourout, 0945hrs, 3rd victory - Ltn d R Hermann Kunz; no matching casualty.

Ltn J Jacobs, Js7, DH4, Zillebeke See, 0950hrs, 9th victory - the only De Havilland casualties were three DH5s, none at this time in this area.

Vfw R Eck, Js3, DH5, Wildermann, 0955hrs, 2nd victory. JWC links this with the Forbes loss - Vzfw Rudolf Eck; I have this noted as a 'Bristol'. If it was a DH5, then Forbes will be a match.

Ltn H Bongartz, Js36, RE8, Molenhoek, 1505hrs, 16th victory - the only RE8 casualty I have listed is RE8 A3673 which hit the ridge pole of an RAF hangar and wiped off its undercarriage due to the pilot (Lt W V Herbert) being blinded by the sun on landing from an infantry liaison flight.

Vfw L Reimann, Js41, Spad, Altmunsterol, (no time), first victory - Vzfw Ludwig Reimann; I have a note that the claim was made between Altkirch and Altmunsterol - given the location, this must be a French machine.

Ltn H Hoyer, Js36, BF2b, Moorslede, (no time), unconfirmed - I have a note that this was a contested victory and adjudication went in favour of Ltn Erich Löwenhardt of Jasta 10, so was one of the three Bristol Fighters lost by No 22 Sqn.

Graeme

[Graeme]

Having gone back to my casualties database, I actually have "? (Ok) & B/201196 Cpl H Burrell (Kia), 2 Sqn, AW FK8, combat" - no mention of McLean nor of the serial number B248.

B248 was with No 2 Squadron and was a presentation machine with the inscription 'Punjab No.25 Kangra Gurdaspur'. As far as I can see, it served in No 2 Squadron without incident from 22 June 1917 to 15 April 1918 when it was hit by AA fire.

As far as McLean goes, of the seven casualties I have listed, four were due to combat - Lt Donald Gordon McLean, 45 Sqn, Kia 4 February 1918; 2nd Lt J McLean, 20 Sqn, Wia 15 August 1917; 2nd Lt Thomas William McLean, 20 Sqn, Kia 21 September 1917 and 2nd Lt William James McLean, 12 Sqn, Wia 25 August 1918.

I have eight 'MacLeans' listed as combat casualties, none with the initial 'J'.

All in all, not sure how McLean got linked to Burrell and B248, but strange that the database entry differs from the entry in the spreadsheet which was used to generate the text for my post. If I was still a smoking man, I'd say a three-piper, at least!

Apologies all round.

Graeme

[James A. Pratt III]

FASWC:
J 29 Schnidt WIA possibly by Fonck Spa 103 2 seater Prob which I have REAL doubts about Ground fire or the RFC or RNAS are more likely

Notes:
Udet FTL CTL Camles and RE 8
J26 Dannhuber WIA by British
FAA 293b Ltn Alfred Meyer WIA
FAA 282 LtndR Werner Herwarth (O) killed Seppois le Bas ?

The FASWC has a 2 seater prob W Chevregny (Chemin des dames area) so the 2 FAA casualties are most likely caused by the British

[Sethspeirs]

Originally Posted by Graeme

Having gone back to my casualties database, I actually have "? (Ok) & B/201196 Cpl H Burrell (Kia), 2 Sqn, AW FK8, combat" - no mention of McLean nor of the serial number B248.

B248 was with No 2 Squadron and was a presentation machine with the inscription 'Punjab No.25 Kangra Gurdaspur'. As far as I can see, it served in No 2 Squadron without incident from 22 June 1917 to 15 April 1918 when it was hit by AA fire.

As far as McLean goes, of the seven casualties I have listed, four were due to combat - Lt Donald Gordon McLean, 45 Sqn, Kia 4 February 1918; 2nd Lt J McLean, 20 Sqn, Wia 15 August 1917; 2nd Lt Thomas William McLean, 20 Sqn, Kia 21 September 1917 and 2nd Lt William James McLean, 12 Sqn, Wia 25 August 1918.

I have eight 'MacLeans' listed as combat casualties, none with the initial 'J'.

All in all, not sure how McLean got linked to Burrell and B248, but strange that the database entry differs from the entry in the spreadsheet which was used to generate the text for my post. If I was still a smoking man, I'd say a three-piper, at least!

Apologies all round.

Graeme

Is it unusual for there to be so little detail around Burrell? Only a Corporal after all!

No aircraft details and no injury to the mystery pilot maybe suggests a "shot and killed" rather than crash injuries. There don't seem to be other damage reports for any 2 Squadron aircraft around this time either.


On a completely irrelevant note to the Burrell discussion, in terms of the other McLeans, I think that J McLean is possibly an error, as the casualty cards list a J M McLean and an I M McLean on that date. There's no 2nd Lt J M McLean as far as I can tell.

To further compound the error, I think this is actually Issac Murray MacLean. The Gazette of 21 July 1917 even issues a correction from McLean!.

[R Gannon]

I attempted to address this, but was logged off, when I logged back in I find have lost my 15minutes worth of effort. mad: I'll try again later.

Russ

[josquin]

Commenting on Seth's discussion about 2/Lieutenant MacLean/McLean, the
RAF Museum casualty card for "J.M. McLean" states that he was "wounded"
15 August 1917 (In AIR 1 Case Book), but this is clearly a misreading for
2/Lt "I. Murray McLean"(sic), whose casualty card says that he was "wounded" on
15 August 1917 whilst serving with 20 Squadron. His RAF service record (AIR 76)
lists him as "Isaac Murray MacLean," birthdate 22 September 1896. Irrespective
of MacLean/McLean's biographical details, his wounding on 15 August has nothing
to do with the loss of Cpl. Harold Burrell of 2 Squadron on 18 October 1917--
which was the subject of the original enquiry, but Seth's
clarification that this was I.M. MacLean/McLean is appreciated.

Josquin

[R Gannon]

Lt G B Shone (Wia; dow 19-Oct-17), 56 Sqn, SE5a B588 – took off 08:10/09:10 then came down and crashed absolutely near St Julien after combat with EA on offensive patrol; usually said to be Ltn d R Helmuth Dilthey, Js27, 5th victory [east of Klerken – Ypres at 08:40/09:40] or Vzfw Willi Kampe, Js27, 3rd victory [west of Paschendaele at 08:50/09:50]

2nd Lt S M Park (Pow), 84 Sqn, SE5a B546 - last seen over Poelcapelle at 09:20/10:20 engaged with one EA on escort to bomb raid on Thielt; Ltn d R Ernst Udet, Js37, 14th victory [Deûlémont at 09:35/10:35] ?

2nd Lt A Koch, 70 Sqn, Albatros Scout crashed Westroosebeke at 09:10/10:10
Lt R T C Hoidge, 56 Sqn, two-seater crashed east of Comines at 08:10/09:10
Lt R T C Hoidge, 56 Sqn, two-seater out of control Wervicq at 08:10/09:10

Lt R Hoidge, No 56 Squadron, with his formation, attacked four EA two-seaters with two Spads. The two-seater escaped and Lt Hoidge returned west and waited for the two-seaters to return. Two came back, one of which he attacked and brought down between the road and river east of Comines. He then attacked and drove down another two-seater completely out of control

Lt J D Gilbert (Kia), 56 Sqn, SE5a B528 – took off 08:10/09:10 and last seen in combat with EA over Bas Warneton going west into clouds on offensive patrol

Take #2 in order to try and allay some of the speculation.

C/56 Sqn led by Capt Bowman went to the aid of some SE5's fighting EA scouts (Js 27?). These look to have been 84 Sqn on escort to a bombing raid (57 Sqn) but reduced to only 3 SE5's by the return leg. C/56 Sqn called it 5 EA scouts - yellow noses & tails. Bowman and Hoidge drove down the lower two EA. Hoidge described his as - green with yellow tail. Unknown to them they must have lost Lt GB Schone - opposition was Js 27 who were flying 11 strong, so it may be that the other 6 came down on the SE5's??? It would have to be Vfw Kampe who accounted for Schone - 0940GT claim was for a Sopwith-1 and given jenseits. As for the 84 Sqn SE5's - RPS of Lt Park (TSTBF II) tells us he chased down one EA only to be attacked by two more - engine hit and FTL near Zarren. Clearly credited to Js 27's Ltn Dilthey who claimed a Sopwith-1 given as diesseits.

In the same area just a little later were B/70 Sqn who scrapped with 6 EA scouts - resulting in the Koch claim as noted by Graeme. EA was reported crashed by 78 Bty RFA. Two of the B Flight Camels were shot about (I do not know names of pilots) - one of these must reflect the second claim of Js 27's Vfw Kampe (0955GT) - again for a Sopwith-1 and given as jenseits.

Communiques simplifies things in regards next scrapping involving C Flight. Later and further south C Flight did attempt to join 4 Spads fighting four 2-seaters, but they were attacked from above by 2 EA scouts (Js 37?) they cleared west and came back going after two 2-seaters: Hoidge fired full drum of Lewis & 100 Vickers from 20 yds sending it down to crash. Hoidge was then attacked by an Albatros scout (Js 37?) but which was driven off by Capt Bowman. Hoidge & Lt JG Gilbert then combined to send the second 2-seater down apparently OOC, but Hoidge had to drive an Albatros off Lt Gilberts tail in process, '...EA left Lt Gilbert and went East..' Capt Bowman also reported driving an Albatros of Gilbert's tail, in addition to the one that got onto Hoidge's tail. Js 37 were apparently 4 strong and went to the aid of two of their LVG's. Ltn Udet claimed a Sopwith-1 - one of two attacking an LVG (Hoidge & Gilbert). Claim was diesseits. Bowman was having trouble with his guns, his Lewis only firing single shots.

Russ