Researching RFC pilot 23 Sqn -Spads

[Merry Jester]

Hi

I am new to this forum and am hoping that someone can assist me with the following enquiry?

I am trying to piece together snippets of my grandfathers WW1 wartime experience with the RFC, 2Lt Thomas Herbert Holiday, 23 Squadron - Spads.

All I ever knew about him was gathered from family memories, that he enlisted with the 1st South African Infantry, D Company and served in Delville Wood with the rank private. He was a runner and a guide to General Lukin and on the 17th July 1916, a shell exploded in close range and he sustained facial wounds and was then sent back to Blighty to recuperate. He was later awarded the MM for his actions. He then transferred to the RFC where he trained at Dover and flew Spads over France. He survived the war(s) and a few of his quotations are published in the book Delville Wood by Ian S. Uys for which he reluctantly agreed to be interviewed. He finally passed away in 1978 at the age of 81.

From his Service Record I find the following information:

5 Mar 1917 - Denham (Basic training possibly ?)
4 Apr 1917 - Oxford (Officer training possibly ?)
4 May 1917 - Central Flying School Hendon
13 Jun 1917 - 49 Squadron (Training possibly ?)
23 Sep 1917 - 56 Training Squadron
15 Dec 1917 - 1 Aeroplane Supply Depot (Pilots Pool in France presumably ?)
30 Dec 1917 - 23 Squadron
19 Feb 1918 - Admitted to Hospital.
26 Feb 1918 - Declared unfit for GS, fit for HS.

I would like to find out as much as I can about his RFC days spent at these various bases, in particular that of 23 Squadron. Where exactly in France was 23 Squadron based and are there any records available that would illuminate his active service flying during this time? Is there any way to find out if he was admitted to hospital from a flying injury? It could have easily been the result of shell shock or early signs of breathing problems as he suffered terribly in later life with acute emphysema.

As a small boy growing up I do recall sitting at his knee and he would tell me stories about the joy of flying. However, he never liked to dwell on the subject of the war, his memories sat very heavy with him.

If anyone can assist me with information or point me in the direction of where best to snoop, I would be very grateful.

Michael

[MASTIFF]

Originally Posted by Merry Jester

I am trying to piece together snippets of my grandfathers WW1 wartime experience with the RFC, 2Lt Thomas Herbert Holiday, 23 Squadron - Spads.

Hi Michael and welcome to the Forum. Although there is no specific mention of your grandfather, information regarding the daily life of 23 Sqn can be found in "Air of Battle" by Willie Fry, pages 141 to 172.

Cheers,
Tony

[Barry Hickson]

Welcome to the Forum Michael!
whilst I cannot assist with your enquiries there are many who will be able to assist.
I know his War Records should be available from the authorities in the UK but at a cost no doubt.

[Merry Jester]

Hi Tony, Barry

Thank you both for your replies.

I will be sure to get hold a copy of the book Air of Battle - I see that it is widely respected.

I have also been seeing references to the RFC Communiques as being a possible source to research. It would be handy though if someone who has a copy could let me know if he is mentioned at all under 23 Squadron late 1917, early 1918 before I mission to get a copy for myself? I do see that elsewhere in the forum Graeme is posting snippets from these communiques under 'this day 100 years ago' so I will try my luck by contacting him.

Regards
Michael

[Graham Broad]

Originally Posted by Merry Jester

Hi

I am new to this forum and am hoping that someone can assist me with the following enquiry?

I am trying to piece together snippets of my grandfathers WW1 wartime experience with the RFC, 2Lt Thomas Herbert Holiday, 23 Squadron - Spads.

All I ever knew about him was gathered from family memories, that he enlisted with the 1st South African Infantry, D Company and served in Delville Wood with the rank private. He was a runner and a guide to General Lukin and on the 17th July 1916, a shell exploded in close range and he sustained facial wounds and was then sent back to Blighty to recuperate. He was later awarded the MM for his actions. He then transferred to the RFC where he trained at Dover and flew Spads over France. He survived the war(s) and a few of his quotations are published in the book Delville Wood by Ian S. Uys for which he reluctantly agreed to be interviewed. He finally passed away in 1978 at the age of 81.

From his Service Record I find the following information:

5 Mar 1917 - Denham (Basic training possibly ?)
4 Apr 1917 - Oxford (Officer training possibly ?)
4 May 1917 - Central Flying School Hendon
13 Jun 1917 - 49 Squadron (Training possibly ?)
23 Sep 1917 - 56 Training Squadron
15 Dec 1917 - 1 Aeroplane Supply Depot (Pilots Pool in France presumably ?)
30 Dec 1917 - 23 Squadron
19 Feb 1918 - Admitted to Hospital.
26 Feb 1918 - Declared unfit for GS, fit for HS.

I would like to find out as much as I can about his RFC days spent at these various bases, in particular that of 23 Squadron. Where exactly in France was 23 Squadron based and are there any records available that would illuminate his active service flying during this time? Is there any way to find out if he was admitted to hospital from a flying injury? It could have easily been the result of shell shock or early signs of breathing problems as he suffered terribly in later life with acute emphysema.

As a small boy growing up I do recall sitting at his knee and he would tell me stories about the joy of flying. However, he never liked to dwell on the subject of the war, his memories sat very heavy with him.

If anyone can assist me with information or point me in the direction of where best to snoop, I would be very grateful.

Michael

Hello, Michael

I did extensive research into 23 Squadron for the period from October to the end of December 1917 for a recent biography I wrote of a Canadian who was a flight leader with the squadron from 29 October 1917 to 28 December 1917, when he was shot down. It seems your grandfather arrived a day or so after my guy died.

The first thing to know about researching individuals in records of the WW1 flying services is that the records are only partially intact, having suffered badly from accident (fire being the main culprit), enemy action (many records destroyed in bombing in WWII), and archival mismanagement. This is true of all British military records from WW1. For instance, the great majority of WW1 medical records were discarded, including something approaching 95% of hospital admission records. In 1959/1960, the RAF destroyed thousands of unclaimed logbooks from the First World War, an appalling act of vandalism given the loss of records that had already occurred.

Most official records are held by the National Archives (formerly Public Records office) in the UK, whose fee for copying is, and by a large margin, the highest I have encountered in any archive I've ever dealt with, and this in addition to a fee they charge for giving you an estimate of what copies will cost.

As regards squadron-level records. 23 Squadron's Combats-in-the-Air reports are mostly intact, despite an intentional theft of many that occurred in the late 1980s. Fortunately, historians and hobbyists across the globe had made copies of them before the theft occurred (not all the originals were recovered) and they can be found in their hands, including some people on the forum here.

For the period in question, 23 Squadron flew out of La Lovie in Belgium, not France, about 10 KM northwest of Ypres. They flew Spad VIIs that they started to trade in for Spad XIIIs in mid-December 1917, and kept flying for the period your grandfather was with them.

23 Squadron's operational orders (these are the flight orders issued by the squadron major) are, like most operational orders, lost. 23's Squadron Record Book, a sort of collective logbook for the squadron, was lost in a fire at Farnborough postwar.

I have not been able to locate any personal papers for most squadron personnel, including the squadron major, the highly regarded Charles Bryant, DSO. Willie Fry's memoir has already been mentioned. I had a line of Fry's logbook and diary, which turned up in a very obscure place indeed, but some people do not like to share.

There are personal papers, including many letters, for Georges Trudeau, who served as a flight leader in 23 during your grandfather's tour with the squadron, in the Directorate of History and Heritage at Canada's Department of National Defense. It's handwritten and in French. No idea if your grandfather is mentioned.

J.M. McAlery, who served as flight leader with the squadron, was wounded at the end of October, and then returned to the squadron in January 1918 (if memory services) before being wounded again, kept a diary that is in the Imperial War Museum, but I'm not sure if he resumed it in January. Worth checking, although note that the IWM has hands-down the worst customer service for remote researchers of any institution I've dealt with anywhere. (Also, they describe it on their website as a logbook. It is not. It's a personal diary.)

Higher Level Orders

There are partially intact operational and daily routine orders for 23 Squadron's wing and brigade. Each of the BEF's field armies had a correspondingly numbered RFC (RAF beginning April 1918) brigade assigned to it. Those brigades in turn were divided into 'wings' designated 'corps' or 'army' wings. Generally speaking, 'corps' wings provided reconnaissance, artillery observation, light bombing, and contact patrols for the army's corps-level formations, while the 'army' wings laid on combat patrols for the army as a whole.

As of November 1917 and, I believe, through the period your grandfather served with the squadron, 23 was under the authority of 11 (Army) Wing, 2 Brigade, RFC. The Daily Routine orders for 11 Wing and 2 Brigade are, if I recall correctly, mostly intact. These deal with administrative dross and will include mention of such things as 2/Lt Holliday was posted to 23 Squadron effective such-and-such a date, granted leave on such-and-such a date, admitted to hospital, etc.

RAF Casualty Cards As your grandfather was admitted to hospital, you may wish to see if the RAF Museum's Story Vault (on line) has a casualty card for him.

Running now, but will return with more later.

Best for your search,

Graham

[Graham Broad]

Originally Posted by Merry Jester

Hi


From his Service Record I find the following information:

5 Mar 1917 - Denham (Basic training possibly ?)
4 Apr 1917 - Oxford (Officer training possibly ?)
4 May 1917 - Central Flying School Hendon
13 Jun 1917 - 49 Squadron (Training possibly ?)
23 Sep 1917 - 56 Training Squadron
15 Dec 1917 - 1 Aeroplane Supply Depot (Pilots Pool in France presumably ?)
30 Dec 1917 - 23 Squadron
19 Feb 1918 - Admitted to Hospital.
26 Feb 1918 - Declared unfit for GS, fit for HS.

Michael

Just following up on a few things here.

Has your grandfather's logbook survived by any chance?

First, it's entirely possible that his Air Ministry service record is incomplete and the dates inexact, especially for his training. Pilots often moved through several squadrons in training, progressing one from phase to the next, gaining experience on different machines, sometimes spending no more than a few days in a particular unit.

Denham and Oxford were locations for the Military School of Aeronautics, the first of which had been established at Reading in late 1915. The MSA's (there were, I think, five by war's end, but I stand to be corrected) were essentially a ground school that, by mid-1916 or so, every pilot had to attend.

The CFS. The Central Flying School, of course. Very few records of the CFS survive from this period, but there is a school newsletter/magazine called Speedy, a few copies of which the Imperial War Museum has and has digitized from mid-1917. Really interesting glimpse into the cultural / social life of the CFS in that period. Lots of sports.

49 Squadron. Service squadrons in the UK, often working up for deployment to France, were used for training duties, often – though not always – so that pilots could experience on service machines they might actually be flying in France. 49 deployed to France in November 1917, flying DH.4's.

56 Training Squadron. The vast majority of the records of individual training squadrons are gone, but the Daily Routine Orders of the home-front brigades that they were attached to are partially intact, and can be useful for tracing the movement / activities of pilots in training, though you have to sift through a lot of administrative dross to find what you're looking for.

1 ASD. Located at St. Omer, France, the 1 ASD (formerly 1 Air Depot) was a logistical hub sustaining the RFC and also served as a pilot pool, where most new pilots in France were sent. Usually pilots would spend a week or two there until called to replace someone in a front-line squadron. A few of the Air Depot / ASD's records have survived - routine orders and record books.

23 Squadron we have discussed.

One more post to follow.

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by Merry Jester

Hi

I am new to this forum and am hoping that someone can assist me with the following enquiry?

I am trying to piece together snippets of my grandfathers WW1 wartime experience with the RFC, 2Lt Thomas Herbert Holiday, 23 Squadron - Spads.

All I ever knew about him was gathered from family memories, that he enlisted with the 1st South African Infantry, D Company and served in Delville Wood with the rank private. He was a runner and a guide to General Lukin and on the 17th July 1916, a shell exploded in close range and he sustained facial wounds and was then sent back to Blighty to recuperate. He was later awarded the MM for his actions. He then transferred to the RFC where he trained at Dover and flew Spads over France. He survived the war(s) and a few of his quotations are published in the book Delville Wood by Ian S. Uys for which he reluctantly agreed to be interviewed. He finally passed away in 1978 at the age of 81.

From his Service Record I find the following information:

5 Mar 1917 - Denham (Basic training possibly ?)
4 Apr 1917 - Oxford (Officer training possibly ?)
4 May 1917 - Central Flying School Hendon
13 Jun 1917 - 49 Squadron (Training possibly ?)
23 Sep 1917 - 56 Training Squadron
15 Dec 1917 - 1 Aeroplane Supply Depot (Pilots Pool in France presumably ?)
30 Dec 1917 - 23 Squadron
19 Feb 1918 - Admitted to Hospital.
26 Feb 1918 - Declared unfit for GS, fit for HS.

I would like to find out as much as I can about his RFC days spent at these various bases, in particular that of 23 Squadron. Where exactly in France was 23 Squadron based and are there any records available that would illuminate his active service flying during this time? Is there any way to find out if he was admitted to hospital from a flying injury? It could have easily been the result of shell shock or early signs of breathing problems as he suffered terribly in later life with acute emphysema.

As a small boy growing up I do recall sitting at his knee and he would tell me stories about the joy of flying. However, he never liked to dwell on the subject of the war, his memories sat very heavy with him.

If anyone can assist me with information or point me in the direction of where best to snoop, I would be very grateful.

Michael

Mate,
Welcome to the flagship 'The Aerodrome' where the finest minds on the planet get together and talk about their favorite subject - WW1

tcrean7828

tom

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by Merry Jester

Hi Tony, Barry

Thank you both for your replies.

I will be sure to get hold a copy of the book Air of Battle - I see that it is widely respected.

I have also been seeing references to the RFC Communiques as being a possible source to research. It would be handy though if someone who has a copy could let me know if he is mentioned at all under 23 Squadron late 1917, early 1918 before I mission to get a copy for myself? I do see that elsewhere in the forum Graeme is posting snippets from these communiques under 'this day 100 years ago' so I will try my luck by contacting him.

Regards
Michael

Mate,
Welcome to the flagship 'The Aerodrome' where the finest minds on the planet get together and talk about their favorite subject - WW1

tcrean7828

tom

[Merry Jester]

Hi Graeme

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply with all of this info. I am overwhelmed.
I still need to go through it all carefully and will revert later but I just wished to acknowledge my grateful thanks to you.
Sadly no, I do not have my grandfather's logbook. I do have his RFC Tunic jacket, Cap and a beautiful hand drawn cartoon of him landing his Spad upside. Clearly he had some issues with landings. No idea who did the cartoon, presumably one of his fellow pilots, but I will scan it in and perhaps someone will be able to shed some light on the artist.

Regards
Michael