Myths about Billy's character

Canuckster · 12 June 2016, 10:50 AM

I am going to ask this right up front. PLEASE save all discussions on whether you believe in his claims or VC raid for another thread or start one (I'll gladly join in). I see there is a thread on the VC raid and it has already quickly devolved into discussing up everything but the raid. Muddies up the waters on the topic at hand.

What I'd like this thread to be is all the rhetoric and other stuff that is bandied about that people use to prove that Billy was a liar, boastful, a cheat, and I guess all round bad person. The tactic is simple, vilify the person so that it is easier to believe anything negative about him.

It seems most of those accusations of Billy's corruptness fall into three categories...1) outright fabrications 2) twisting of whatever was stated or 3) to use double-standards regarding something Billy did or said as proof of deceit even if it was a common occurrence amongst others.

In Histo-journalist Ian Mackersey's book "No Empty Chairs" the writer employs this tactic in the chapter "The Raid That Never Was" setting the tone for the development of Billy's evilness almost right from birth or as he describes 'his less than virtuous earlier life back in Canada'. There even seems to be an insinuation that the house he grew up contributed in the development of those evil traits.

So I'll start things off with my favourite as it not only came up in the last few days on another thread but primarily because of its source and can be disproved without a shadow of a doubt.

Myth:
Department of National Defence historian Breton Greenhous claimed that Billy wore the 1914-1915 Star to which he was not entitled. With credentials like that how could it be anything but the truth and an indictment of Billy's character? I bet all you BB-haters' blood boils with contempt just reading that!

Myth Busted:
The criteria for someone from the UK may have been getting to France. What's forgotten is that someone coming from Canada had to cross that big old war zone called the Atlantic Ocean. As soon as you were three miles out. Here's what the Department of National Defence in Ottawa has to say...
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/rememb...66-1918/15star

So how could a historian at DND in Ottawa get something so wrong about info that has always been available from the DND in Ottawa?

rexee · 12 June 2016, 02:36 PM

'Eligibility for the 1914-1915 Star is determined by Theatre of War and Date of Service. If Theatre of War reads France, and Date of Service shows a date before 31 December 1915, the soldier is eligible for the Star.'

'1914-1915 Star: Granted to all officers and men who actively served on the establishment of a unit in a Theatre of War, for example France or Belgium, between midnight 22 November 1914 and midnight 31 December 1915.'

Sorry, crossing the Atlantic to get to England doesn't count.

http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discove...edal-card.aspx

Rex

MASTIFF · 12 June 2016, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rexee

Sorry, crossing the Atlantic to get to England doesn't count.

Rex,

The link given by Canuckster is the official Veterans Affairs Canada site. It defines "overseas" as being beyond the 3 mile limit. Since Bishop was on active service with the 7th Canadian Mounted Rifles and aboard ship in a war zone, he was entitled to the 14-15 star.

Cheers,
Tony

Graham Broad · 12 June 2016, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canuckster

So how could a historian at DND in Ottawa get something so wrong about info that has always been available from the DND in Ottawa?

I knew him, a bit. I know DND historians now. They make mistakes sometimes. We all do.

spad · 13 June 2016, 05:26 AM

I think using words like "evil" and corrupt are a little harsh and obviously the intent is to put those who have questioned Bishops character in the guise of witch hunters. I do believe Bishop fabricated events but calling him evil for doing so is just silly and I haven't seen it in any of the posts. Corrupt maybe, dishonest, yes. You may argue this is semantics but for my mind Bishop was a brave, brash, on-the-make colonial who saw an opportunity and took it (aided by Jack Scott and the British General Staff). In a war where so many were killed and reputations have been built up and brought crashing down post-war I think there's something of the plausible cad about him that makes you crack a wry smile. He lived with it pretty well and as far as I know showed no remorse, so that's the end of it as far as I am concerned. He was obviously popular with many fellow pilots so he was fun to be around. He wasn't a murderer, a rapist or a traitor and if fabricating his actions was the worst thing he did in life then...good luck to him. Questioning his character is allowed and I will join in if I have an opinion but let's not make it more than it is. He didn't steal the orphans Christmas fund, he fibbed and others could have stopped it snowballing but they didn't. They used him and he benefited from it, it may have saved his life.

regards

Keith

Canuckster · 13 June 2016, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rexee

'Eligibility for the 1914-1915 Star is determined by Theatre of War and Date of Service. If Theatre of War reads France, and Date of Service shows a date before 31 December 1915, the soldier is eligible for the Star.'

'1914-1915 Star: Granted to all officers and men who actively served on the establishment of a unit in a Theatre of War, for example France or Belgium, between midnight 22 November 1914 and midnight 31 December 1915.'

Sorry, crossing the Atlantic to get to England doesn't count.

http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discove...edal-card.aspx

Rex

Frederic Davies would not be eligible for the 1914-1915 Star regardless of what criteria was applied.

from wiki:
The 107th Battalion (Winnipeg), CEF, was an infantry battalion of the Great War Canadian Expeditionary Force. The 107th Battalion was authorized on 4 November 1915 and embarked for Britain on 19 September 1916. The battalion was converted to Pioneers and served in France and Flanders as the 107th Pioneer Battalion.

rexee · 13 June 2016, 08:56 AM

Came across this discussion on the subject.

http://cefresearch.ca/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=7129

Cheers
Rex

Canuckster · 13 June 2016, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rexee

Came across this discussion on the subject.

http://cefresearch.ca/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=7129

Cheers
Rex

Rex, looks like I may stand to be corrected.

rexee · 13 June 2016, 10:38 AM

According to Peter Kilduff's book. "Lone Wolf Hunter" there is evidence that Bishop crossed the channel in October of 1915. That would definitely have earned him the medal.

"By the end of October, Billy completed machine-gun and artillery-ranging practice and began flying over the frontlines in France. He wrote to Margaret about a flight from Dover across the Channel to St. Omer, where he and his pilot were directed to a battle zone."

also, from a letter to Margaret, dated 29 October, 1915

"We had a two-hour reconnaissance over the lines and, believe me ... I am not ashamed to say it, I was glad when it was over. Then we came back here [Netheravon], landing first at Dover [to refuel]. The whole trip ... took about four hours. The RFC [personnel] who are stationed in France seemed to like it there, but they dread the bad weather coming. During the winter ... [there]will be a continual series of machines ... going over for the day, as that way has proved [to be] so successful. {It is] so crowded in France that it is hard to find suitable places for a large number of machines.”

Rex

MASTIFF · 13 June 2016, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canuckster

Rex, looks like I may stand to be corrected.

Not so. The discussion on the site posted by Rex seems to centre on the date Bishop's RFC SQUADRON got to France. That was much later.

We need to concentrate on the fact that Bishop was still 7th CMR and he and his ENTIRE UNIT were on active service in a war zone while aboard ship.

I can see a replacement soldier, in transit to join a unit, not yet being on active service with that unit in a war zone. Just passing through, as it were. But Bishop was already a part of his unit and the entire unit was on active service.

I wonder if anyone has checked the service records of the rest of 7 CMR to see if any or none of them have the 14-15 star. If so, please post what you have.

Cheers,
Tony