Ltn.d.R. Max Kühn (Jasta 10)

[Igor Starikow]

Hello,
I would like to know more information about this person.

When and where was he born? According to Karl Bodenschatz book (Jagd in Flanderns Himmel) on March 1, 1918, Ltn.d.R. Max Kühn was 23 years old. This means that he was born in 1894 or 1895.

I have one suggestion. In the casualty lists have this man: http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/7607321

From another source I know that he was born November 25, 1895 in Frankfurt am Oder and died October 19, 1978. But this Max Kühn on March 1, 1918 was only 22 years old.

He served in the Jasta 10 from July 1917 to May 1918 and won one aerial victory. In total he had three aerial victories. Where were won two other aerial victories? Where he served?

Any help will be welcome for decorations, promotion dates and other.

Thanks in advance,
Igor

[Roc]

Hi Igor Starikow,

the only Max Kuhn I found was that one http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/germany/kuhn.php and in polish wiki https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_K%C3%BChn

Form the book "Above the Lines" I know that he was a Feldwebel during his time in Jasta 21. I think that you might referring to some other pilot though...

The aerodrome might be wrong considering him as Vitzefeldwebel, because of what is written in the book. (actually no, I did not know than Vize is a higher rank...)

[tcrean7828]

Mate,
This is what I have from my book Lieutenant der Reserve Werner Voss and the Pilots of Jasta 10.

10-00 – Ltn.d.R. Vizefeldwebel Max Kühn (Kuhn) – Pfalz D.III - /17. (Final flight – 2nd segment of the Evening Patrol Take off, 23 Sept 1917)

• Born: Unk
• Units assigned: Jasta 10, 21, AFP 2
• Joined Jasta 10 in: Jul 1917(1918) - ‘The Illustrated Red Baron’ by Peter Kilduff pg 146; ‘The Jasta Pilots’ by Norman Franks, Frank Bailey and Rick Duiven – pg 194; ‘aerodrome.com’ – Rick Duiven and Lloyd Leichentritt.
• Ltn.d.R. Max Kühn was Ltn.d.R. Rüdenberg’s friend at Jasta 10 - ‘Over the Front Vol.16-2001-Summer Issue No.2’ by Dov Gavish, PhD and Dieter H.M. Groschel, M.D – pg 120, 125.
• Took over as Acting Commander of Jasta 10 from 26 Sept 1917 until 27 Sept 1917(OfStv) - ‘The Jasta Pilots’ by Norman Franks, Frank Bailey and Rick Duiven – pg 194; ‘Hunting With Richthofen: The Bodenschatz Diaries: Sixteen Months of Battle with J.G. Freiherr Von Richthofen Nr.1’ by Jan Hayzlett – pg 153.
• He is credited with 12 total Victories with 2 unconfirmed – 8 of his confirmed victories were Balloons - ‘Above the Lines’ by Norman L. R. Franks, Frank W. Bailey & Russell Guest – pg 151.

Date Time Unit Aircraft Opponent Location
*
u/c 02 Feb 1918
05 Jun 1918 1540 Jasta 10 Jasta 21 S.E.5 Bréguet 14 Bouchain
Nogentel
u/c 12 Jun 1918 Jasta 21 Bréguet 14 S of Crepy
1 27 Jun 1918 1300 Jasta 21 SPAD Zussiares
2 04 Jul 1918 0900 Jasta 21 SPAD NW of La Ferté Melon
3 03 Aug 1918 1725 Jasta 21 Balloon W of Sapponay
4 04 Aug 1918 1930 Jasta 21 Balloon Hartennes
5 07 Aug 1918 1720 Jasta 21 Balloon S of Fismes
6 11 Aug 1918 1325 Jasta 21 Bréguet 14 E of Arcis
7 14 Aug 1918 Jasta 21 Balloon SW of Soissons
8 15 Aug 1918 Jasta 21 SPAD
9 24 Sep 1918 1815 Jasta 21 Balloon SW of Fismes
10 01 Oct 1918 1810 Jasta 21 Balloon W of Fismes
11 01 Oct 1918 1815 Jasta 21 Balloon W of Fismes
12 05 Oct 1918 1217 Jasta 21 Balloon Braisne

• He was one of German’s Balloon-Busters.
• *He scored his 1st victory with Jasta 10 on 02 Feb 1918 @ 1540 against an S.E.5a over Auberchicourt and forced it to land (Ftl) near Bouchain. S.E.5a (B8273) was from 41 Sqn. (RFC) and the Pilot was Major Frederick James Powell who was wounded in Action (WIA) and after crashing his aircraft became a prisoner-of-war (POW) - The Red Baron Combat Wing: Jagdgeschwader Richthofen in Battle’ – Peter Kilduff - pg 255; ‘The Jasta Pilots’ by Norman Franks, Frank Bailey and Rick Duiven – pg 194; ‘aerodrome.com’ – Rick Duiven and Lloyd Leichentritt.

Picture #1: Major Frederick James Powell (6 Victories)

• While serving with Jasta 10, he was Ltn. Heldmann’s wing man – ‘Pfalz Scout Aces of World War 1’ by Greg VanWyngarden, Harry Dempsey – pg 24.
• All of his confirmed kills were with Jasta 21, except 1 and all in 1918 – ‘aerodrome.com’ – personal; ‘aerodrome.com’ – Rick Duiven and Lloyd Leichentritt.
• Max Kühn served with Jasta 21 as a Feldwebel prior to promotion to Vizefeldwebel in Jul 1918 - ‘Above the Lines’ by Norman L. R. Franks, Frank W. Bailey & Russell Guest – pg 151.
• He became a balloon busting specialist along the French front, destroying eight “drachens” of his total - ‘Above the Lines’ by Norman L. R. Franks, Frank W. Bailey & Russell Guest – pg 151.
• While serving with Jasta 21 on the Western Front, Ltn. Kühn downed 8 balloons and 4 enemy planes in 1918 ‘aerodrome.com’ – personal.
• Transferred to AFP2 on 03 May 1918 - ‘The Illustrated Red Baron’ by Peter Kilduff pg 146; ‘Air Aces of the 1914 – 1918 War’ by D.A. Russell – Pg 194 -197; ‘The Jasta Pilots’ by Norman Franks, Frank Bailey and Rick Duiven – pg 194; ‘aerodrome.com’ – Rick Duiven and Lloyd Leichentritt.
• By 01 Mar 1918, Ltn. d.R. Kühn was 23 years old - ‘Hunting With Richthofen: The Bodenschatz Diaries: Sixteen Months of Battle with J.G. Freiherr Von Richthofen Nr.1’ by Jan Hayzlett – pg 55.
• On 03 May 1918 Ltn. Kühn of Jasta 10 is ordered to Army Flugpark 2, Kogenluft 176196 as of 28 Apr 1918 - ‘Hunting With Richthofen: The Bodenschatz Diaries: Sixteen Months of Battle with J.G. Freiherr Von Richthofen Nr.1’ by Jan Hayzlett – pg 182.
• On 11 May 1918, placed at the disposal of Idflieg: Ltn. Kühn (Jasta 10) in conformity with Kogenluft Nr. 176343 of 06 May 1918 - ‘Hunting With Richthofen: The Bodenschatz Diaries: Sixteen Months of Battle with J.G. Freiherr Von Richthofen Nr.1’ by Jan Hayzlett – pg 183-184.
• Survived the War and was killed in a Post war crash in 1920 – ‘aerodrome.com – personal; ‘Above the Lines’ by Norman L. R. Franks, Frank W. Bailey & Russell Guest – pg 126.

NOTE: According to Friedrich Rüdenberg, in his memories, noted that in 1934 while he was working in Turkey, he was visited by his former comrade and friend Max Kühn, then Director General of the State Electric Company of Saxony - ‘Over the Front Vol.16-2001-Summer Issue No.2’ by Dov Gavish, PhD and Dieter H.M. Groschel, M.D – pg 125.

Thats all I have on him. Hope this helps.

tcrean7828

tom

[Igor Starikow]

Dear tcrean7828 and Roc,
Thank you very much for your response!

According to the "The Jasta Pilots" (pp. 194 - 195) I know that they were two different people:
1. Ltn.d.R. Max Kühn (3 victories), who served in the Jasta 10.
2. Vzfw. Max Kuhn (12 victories), who served in the Jasta 21s.

I am interested in only the first one.

This is new information for me that in 1934 Max Kühn was Director General of the State Electric Company of Saxony. Perhaps it will help to know more about this man.

Best wishes,
Igor

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by Igor Starikow

Dear tcrean7828 and Roc,
Thank you very much for your response!

According to the "The Jasta Pilots" (pp. 194 - 195) I know that they were two different people:
1. Ltn.d.R. Max Kühn (3 victories), who served in the Jasta 10.
2. Vzfw. Max Kuhn (12 victories), who served in the Jasta 21s.

I am interested in only the first one.

This is new information for me that in 1934 Max Kühn was Director General of the State Electric Company of Saxony. Perhaps it will help to know more about this man.

Best wishes,
Igor

Mate,
Could it be that Max Kühn got promoted?

tcrean7828

tom

[R Gannon]

I think Igor is right - two different Max Kuhn's here.

Just for the record - 2 Feb 18 - a 5 strong C Flight of 41 Sqn accompanied by the CO Maj Powell engaged a formation of 6 Albatros only to be bounced by 7 more. Powell was driven down by 3 EA. Three Albatros were claimed in return - one crashed (by Capt RW Chappell) and two OOC.

Cheers Russ

[saxon lions]

In actual fact we have three Max Kühns and one Max Kuhn. Kuhn appears to be a very common German surname with at least four different variations all of which appear in Verlustlisten, Kuhn (70 called Max), Kühn (270), Kuhne (5) and Kühne (120). To add to the fun Kühn can also be spelt Kuehn and Verlustlisten occasionally misspelt names (the listing for Günther Dobberke for his crash injuries in 1918 appears as Dobberlee) so even if a soldier used Kuhn as the spelling he could still be listed under any of the others, and he may have had more than one forename all of which again could be used! So unless you have some other info to link in it is a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack.

1. Lnt.d.Res Max Kühn – Frankfurt am Oder

The easiest to deal with as on Verlustlisten he is listed as + infolge krankheit – died as a result of illness on 1918-01-24 so that it can be assumed he actually died 4-6 weeks earlier towards the end of 1917 3 months before the last victory of Ltn.d.Res Kühn of Jasta 10. He appears to have been commissioned on14/10/17.

2. Max Kühn – Frankfurt am Oder - 25/11/95-19/10/78

Clearly this is a different person from the previous Max Kühn and nothing is known about him but it is interesting that they shared the same birthday albeit from probably different years.

3. Vzfw Max Kuhn – Jasta 21 (note the surname is spelt without the umlats)

According to the very reliable late Rick Duiven’s Datafile for Jasta 21 on Forum Eerste Wereldoorlog at the time of his first unconfirmed claim on 05/06/18 Max Kuhn held the rank of Sergeant (Sgt). This was the rank he still held at the time of his twelfth victory on 05/10/18, so his promotion to Vzfw (Senior NCO) must have been in the last weeks of the war. Thus unless Ltn.d.Res Kühn of Jasta 10 had suffered a career reversal greater than that of v, Althaus they are clearly different men.

Going back through Verlustlisten a Sergt. Max Kuhn born Berlin 06/02/?? is listed on 28/05/18 as having received a light wound but remained with his unit. This was two months before Sgt Kuhn's initial unconfirmed claim. If it is the same man his Birth Registration is on Ancestry.co – Max Willy Kuhn 06/02/90.

Confirmation of this may be possible via records of his death – is the exact date of his 1920 crash or the site known.

4. Lnt.d.Res Max Kühn – Jasta 10

I could find no other information of this Lnt.d.Res but can make some observations which may help.

The portrait picture of him that appears in T Crean’s book (taken from the last photo of v. Althaus with Jasta 10) appears to show him wearing an officer’s undress litewka with the white collar patches adopted by infantry officers about 1915 (I think), so his original commission may have been as a Leutnant der Reserve in the Infantry either as a war time promotion or as a retired pre-war officer.

I noted that the last two references to him by Karl Bodenschatz on pages 182/183 refer to Lt Max Kühn not Lnt.d.Res. I do not know if this is a mistake, or had he by April 1918 received a commission in the Regular Army. In the Rolls for the Saxon St. Heinrich Order there appears numerous ’career’ Officers who spent just enough time at the front with a Jasta to get their victory, medal and then returned to their safe desk job perhaps this is another example.

Finally, It would appear that he may well be the Director General of the State Electric Company of Saxony in 1934 noted by Friedrich Rüdenberg. If so then he may well be a Saxon as most Germans returned home after the war. Unfortunately, the Roth lists for recipients of the Saxon Albert Order are incomplete for 1918 but he definitely did not receive the St. Heinrich Order.

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by saxon lions

In actual fact we have three Max Kühns and one Max Kuhn. Kuhn appears to be a very common German surname with at least four different variations all of which appear in Verlustlisten, Kuhn (70 called Max), Kühn (270), Kuhne (5) and Kühne (120). To add to the fun Kühn can also be spelt Kuehn and Verlustlisten occasionally misspelt names (the listing for Günther Dobberke for his crash injuries in 1918 appears as Dobberlee) so even if a soldier used Kuhn as the spelling he could still be listed under any of the others, and he may have had more than one forename all of which again could be used! So unless you have some other info to link in it is a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack.

1. Lnt.d.Res Max Kühn – Frankfurt am Oder

The easiest to deal with as on Verlustlisten he is listed as + infolge krankheit – died as a result of illness on 1918-01-24 so that it can be assumed he actually died 4-6 weeks earlier towards the end of 1917 3 months before the last victory of Ltn.d.Res Kühn of Jasta 10. He appears to have been commissioned on14/10/17.

2. Max Kühn – Frankfurt am Oder - 25/11/95-19/10/78

Clearly this is a different person from the previous Max Kühn and nothing is known about him but it is interesting that they shared the same birthday albeit from probably different years.

3. Vzfw Max Kuhn – Jasta 21 (note the surname is spelt without the umlats)

According to the very reliable late Rick Duiven’s Datafile for Jasta 21 on Forum Eerste Wereldoorlog at the time of his first unconfirmed claim on 05/06/18 Max Kuhn held the rank of Sergeant (Sgt). This was the rank he still held at the time of his twelfth victory on 05/10/18, so his promotion to Vzfw (Senior NCO) must have been in the last weeks of the war. Thus unless Ltn.d.Res Kühn of Jasta 10 had suffered a career reversal greater than that of v, Althaus they are clearly different men.

Going back through Verlustlisten a Sergt. Max Kuhn born Berlin 06/02/?? is listed on 28/05/18 as having received a light wound but remained with his unit. This was two months before Sgt Kuhn's initial unconfirmed claim. If it is the same man his Birth Registration is on Ancestry.co – Max Willy Kuhn 06/02/90.

Confirmation of this may be possible via records of his death – is the exact date of his 1920 crash or the site known.

4. Lnt.d.Res Max Kühn – Jasta 10

I could find no other information of this Lnt.d.Res but can make some observations which may help.

The portrait picture of him that appears in T Crean’s book (taken from the last photo of v. Althaus with Jasta 10) appears to show him wearing an officer’s undress litewka with the white collar patches adopted by infantry officers about 1915 (I think), so his original commission may have been as a Leutnant der Reserve in the Infantry either as a war time promotion or as a retired pre-war officer.

I noted that the last two references to him by Karl Bodenschatz on pages 182/183 refer to Lt Max Kühn not Lnt.d.Res. I do not know if this is a mistake, or had he by April 1918 received a commission in the Regular Army. In the Rolls for the Saxon St. Heinrich Order there appears numerous ’career’ Officers who spent just enough time at the front with a Jasta to get their victory, medal and then returned to their safe desk job perhaps this is another example.

Finally, It would appear that he may well be the Director General of the State Electric Company of Saxony in 1934 noted by Friedrich Rüdenberg. If so then he may well be a Saxon as most Germans returned home after the war. Unfortunately, the Roth lists for recipients of the Saxon Albert Order are incomplete for 1918 but he definitely did not receive the St. Heinrich Order.

Mates,
Very interesting and informative. Gee even old dogs like me can learn new and interesting things from this site. Keep up the good work.

tcrean7828

tom

[Igor Starikow]

Hi saxon lions, tcrean7828 & R Gannon,
Thank you very much for your answers!

Dear Saxon lions, You are right that Max Kühn this is a very popular name in Germany. I was looking to 1894 year of birth, and found more than 10 people in Saxony, and in the other states of Germany.

We need some more information.

From its three aerial victories he won only one in the Jasta 10. Where were won two more aerial victories?

I will be glad of any information.

All the best,
Igor

[frontflieger]

Originally Posted by saxon lions

...

I noted that the last two references to him by Karl Bodenschatz on pages 182/183 refer to Lt Max Kühn not Lnt.d.Res. I do not know if this is a mistake, or had he by April 1918 received a commission in the Regular Army.

I think this was a mistake. I have never read about a "Lt. d. R." who became an active Leutant during the war.


You've written a great resumee the Kuhn/Kühn-people