Morane-Saulnier Type P information?

Jim · 18 June 2014, 05:53 AM

It has been several years since I have asked if anyone might help me identify the specific Morane-Saulnier Type P aircraft from which the below data plates were taken. Back then, no one had any information on M-S Type P serial numbers or specific aircraft. Perhaps there is more information today than there was back then, or perhaps there are new members who are knowledgeable on French aircraft so I am asking my question again.

Below are photos of a pair of data plates that came off of a Morane-Saulnier Type P aircraft. I bought them many years ago from a man who told me they were had belonged to his father who had been a soldier in the Great War and that his father had taken them off of a crashed aircraft as a war souvenir. I paid very little for these data plates and the seller did not embellish the story so there was no motive for the seller to be making up a story to get more money for them.

What I am hoping to learn is whether there are any records that could tell me about this specific Type P aircraft with this serial number. I know in general that there were 595 Type P aircraft built and they were larger, more powerful and better armed than their predecessor, the Type L ,and they were generally liked by pilots better than the Type LA which were being made at the same time as the Type P. Also I know that Type P aircraft were used by both the French and the British and that some were used for reconnaissance and some were used as a fighter. They had two machine guns for armament, and could carry small bomb loads.

Can anyone tell me about the actual Type P to which this specific data plate was attached? When was this one built, to what unit was it assigned? With the serial number of 408 I assume it was built about two-thirds of the way through the production run since 595 were built, but when would that have been? Was this particular Type P assigned for use for reconnaissance or as a fighter? Also, I am not aware of the existence of any other Type P data plates. Does anyone know if any others exist somewhere or is this one the only one known so far?

Merci beaucoup, mes amis.
Cordialement,
Jim

minimax · 18 June 2014, 08:41 AM

As you know, the French had three numbers by which an aircraft was identified, the construction number (n/c) which usually began at 1 and worked sequentially up all types, the series number (serie) which usually began at 1 for each general type, and the SFA (Service des Fabrications de l'Aviation) number which was it's military serial number and appeared on the tail. The SFA does not appear on the data plate.
Using a Morane LA as an example, technically all three numbers would appear as 597/L406/MS430, or 738/BB5/MS564 for a Morane biplane.
In this case the n/c is presumably 1533 rather than 'I533' as they reached construction number 533 in the 'LA' series, so I suggest it is 1533/P408/MS<unknown>.
The RFC initially recorded most or all of the three numbers for the Moranes they acquired, but sadly stopped doing this after about August 1915.
Without the SFA number it might be difficult to tie the plate to a specific aircraft, unless a French expert can help.
Note that the 'P' was produced in a type 21 and type 26 version, and some websites refer to the type simply as XXI or XXVI.
The SFA numbers were issued in batches to each type but with other types in between.

RAF56_Ball · 18 June 2014, 09:58 AM

Re: lower plate, this is how much I was able to get from Google Translate.

"Speed maxima system should not be used as the rise: in any case it must not be exceeded.
In horizontal flight should not exceed the speed of normal operation to reduce the chances of failure."

What does it really say?

Froggy · 18 June 2014, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAF56_Ball

Re: lower plate, this is how much I was able to get from Google Translate.

"Speed maxima system should not be used as the rise: in any case it must not be exceeded.
In horizontal flight should not exceed the speed of normal operation to reduce the chances of failure."

What does it really say?

I have nearly the same translation...
"The maximum rating of the engine should be used only when climbing . In no case it must be exceeded. In horizontal flight one should not exceed the normal rating of the engine in order to reduce the risks of failure"

roughly That means that one should not force the engine in any situation...

Cordialement
Bruno

minimax · 18 June 2014, 11:21 AM

Just to add - I've found one Parasol c/n tie-up
c/n 954 is shown as Parasol P19, MS784, supplied to RFC as serial A193 on 06.07.16

RAF56_Ball · 18 June 2014, 12:25 PM

Ah, Bruno, now I get it. I was not understanding the "system" was a reference to the powerplant.

Jim · 19 June 2014, 08:35 AM

Thanks everyone! I will keep hoping someone will find a resource that will link this data plate to a specific aircraft, but I know it will not be easy or perhaps not happen. I will keep hoping though.

Minimax, thanks for your greater explanation on the three numbering systems used by the French. I was somewhat aware but your good explanation makes it very clear to me now. My one question is the first number - the construction number. Am I correct in understanding that this sequential number applies to all aircraft built by that specific maker and that this would be aircraft number 1,533 of all aircraft built by Morane-Saulnier? If this is the case then perhaps this might help in determining a date on which this aircraft was built if other data plates from MS aircraft of any type where the SFA number is known? Your great find of construction number 954 as Parasol P19, MS784, supplied to RFC as serial A193 on 06.07.16 is a good starting point as it would place my aircraft as having been built after this date - possibly in late 1916 or even in early 1917?

I have seen production numbers of 595 aircraft in some places, and 565 in other places. Does anyone know which is the correct total?

Given that this aircraft was number 408 out of either 595 or 565, would that mean it would likely be the later MS-26 version rather than the MS-21 version or is that something that is unknowable? I know that the 26 had a full cowl and the 21 had a partial cowl, but what were the other differences between the 21 and 26 versions?

Also, since no one yet seems to be aware of any other Type P data plates, perhaps this is the only one remaining that has been found so far?

minimax · 19 June 2014, 11:06 AM

You are correct re the c/n
The aircraft is certainly late production. I've found a few early post-war civil registrations:
Morane P (type 26) c/n 1640 became F-AEDI
Morane AI (type 30) c/n 1667 was F-ABAD
Morane AI (type 30) c/n 1673 was F-ABHL
Morane AR c/n 1725 was F-AIKJ
Morane AI c/n 1748 was M-AAAC registered 1920

The Type 21 was supplied to the RFC before the type 26, but you can never assume anything with WW1 aviation!

Jim · 19 June 2014, 06:48 PM

Thanks, again!

Is there a page on the web that describes the differences between the MS-21 and the MS-26?

And I absolutely agree with you that Great War aviation is something that makes assumptions of limited value.

minimax · 20 June 2014, 12:44 AM

There is a Cross & Cockade article, the first page being:
http://www.crossandcockade.com/uploads/Moranes1_opt.pdf
otherwise search Google for "Morane MoS21", MoS26 rather than just 'P'
Note that most articles say the P had a 110hp engine, but as the C&C article points out, the RFC fitted a lot of them with 80hp engines.
For an online listing of RFC Moranes see www.airhistory.org.uk/Morane.html
and a limited list of French machines is at:
Société Morane Saulnier