Replica BMW IIIa motors?

Fokker 112 · 5 February 2014, 12:02 AM

Has anyone ever offered remanufactured BMW IIIa motors, or even the parts and pieces needed to rebuild the old ones?

Now onto the really good part;

I could build that motor to modern standards, and it would still be the same BMW IIIa WW1 motor with the same function and performance, but it would and offer a much more durable motor (from the improved metallurgy, castings, and machining processes and controls) but this replica would appear as if it were the best original motor to have ever come off the BMW line back in 1918. These motors would be beautiful when completed!

$60,000 each would be close to the final price, based on other projects that have similar components using similar manufacturing processes.
At that price, ready to turn the prop and go, do you think I could sell 8 of them?

I wonder how many builders would choose this "spare no expense" replica/reproduction motor for most DVII installations, over the thought of running up the hours on their 100-year old original motor. Running the replica and saving the original might become the new strategy.

Who would buy a couple for their project DVII's? Think about it....

John McKenzie · 5 February 2014, 12:55 AM

Sure you could sell them......IF you could build them ??.

Can you show us some previous "similar projects" that you have done .

Usually , for obvious reasons , this sort of notice is not taken seriously ,...but one should not dismiss it before giving the chance to show us you're serious .

Might be an idea to say who you are & show us your set up .

Regards JM

Fokker 112 · 5 February 2014, 11:55 PM

I'm not ready to build them yet, and if I did I'd build them on my dollar so you guys could take one or two or leave them, no risk on your part.

That way too, I could hold onto the price until they were ready for delivery and make sure I could make a slight profit or at least break even! In the end these things would cost what theirs parts and pieces cost to cast/forge/weldment and machine, assembly would be nothing compared to the parts bills.

I'd make sure all the prospective buyers saw all the good parts and processes along the way and we could all test one together. You'd know you were getting the best possible piece that could be built when it was ready.

I just wonder why it hasn't been done already. Maybe too much risk!

I'll talk more about it all later after I calculate the interest and potential.

'14-'18aviationcollector · 6 February 2014, 07:49 AM

Hi,

Having done quite a lot of investigation into building replica WW1 aeroplane engines myself, I understand why it is not common for individuals or even companies to manufacture them. Presumably, from what I have seen on the news manufacturing is struggling in your country, as it is here. Until I was contacted by another Aerodrome member I was having a lot of trouble finding anyone who is capable of casting and forging components. I didn't see your price at first but my conservative estimate was about 3 times yours, and that's without any unforseen difficulties, which almost invariably come up when such ambitious projects are undertaken. At your price you should not have any trouble selling 8 engines in theory, but in practice you might have a lot of trouble finding buyers who have the money and are willing to spend it. Udo, a member here has often commented that most replica builders do not have huge amounts of money to spend on projects, and I am inclined to agree with him.

I certainly agree that original engines should retired where possible, and hope that you, I and anyone else who has this aim in mind is able to do so. As you probably know, CAMS in NZ and possibly TVAL (I'm not sure if they build their own engines or whether they are built by other companies) are building some engines, which is absolutely fantastic to see.

I certainly wish you all the best of luck, and I would be interested in an engine, although I fit into the category I mentioned before.

If I am able to figure out a way to earn much better money I would ask you to build one for me, but for the moment it will just have to stay on my wish list. Do you have drawings for the BMW, or any other type of aeroplane engine?

Regards,

David.

snj5 · 6 February 2014, 11:25 AM

Classic Aero Machining Service in Omaka, NZ, has just run the first of their reproduction Gnome 9B-2 engines, which will be commercially available.

From the experience with the CAMS Gnome, you'll find that most builders are going to wait until a proven product has been demonstrated. There are stories of folks having their money dumped into projects in good faith that never materialized, and resulted in legal battles, even dealing with so-called 'reputable' firms.

With the CAMS Gnome, it is applicable over a wide variety of airframes and is comparatively straightforward to build. Remember your customer demographic. Not sure how many folks building a BMW-applicable aircraft these days would be willing to pop for $60K sight unseen, if you could build it for that much. A Valley VW redrive, is about $10K 150 hp Rotec radial is about in the mid 20's, and 0-time certified engines start about there and go up. While the CAMS Gnome is about that much, in-line water cooled engines have had numbers bandied about here of $100K to reproduce.

I do hope you you are someday able to proceed and do this, myself. Just the build would be an adventure.

Brad · 6 February 2014, 11:51 AM

While the BMW is certainly the better engine, I would think a Mercedes DIII would be a more appropriate project as it would be fitting for a wider variety of airframes. That being said, I'm not in the market for any of the above- they are FAR beyond my means.

'14-'18aviationcollector · 7 February 2014, 06:30 AM

Hi Russ,

If you're referring to the estimate given by Udo surely it's 100,000 Euro, rather than dollars. I haven't checked the exchange rates but 100,000 Euro would surely be in the ballpark of the $180,000 to $190,000 I estimated when I made some enquiries. If the major components were produced overseas it would reduce the cost significantly, although quality can be an issue.

As nice as it would be to have a replica engine made to original specifications, such an expensive project is far beyond my means as well, Brad. I can see why people use alternatives such as mentioned by Russ.

Regards,

David.

Maxim08 · 7 February 2014, 06:59 AM

Recently a TVAL built Albatros was for sale through a broker. There was a thread about this last fall. Asking price was ~690 USD. It had/has a new Daimler Mercedes D IIIa motor, not a rebuilt original. How many of those $$ do think was engine and how much airframe?

Regards
John

John McKenzie · 7 February 2014, 10:28 AM

Hi John $ 690....Quite reasonable

Seriously , ...obviously $ 690 ,000 usd .....but I understood that it still has a Rebuild motor ,... but with "some" new parts .
Sounds decidedly overpriced !

JM

snj5 · 7 February 2014, 10:38 AM

I've always thought if there was ever a niche market, WW1 aircraft is it. There is probably a wider market for Molsheim Bugattis. I imagine at that high end of the spectum it is not about general market demographic, rather a targeted small group of specific buyers (JA,KW,JY, etc.). I think the targeted buyers will still set the value in this case. As far as a wider buyer demographic, I think it about 90% of it is below $80K. The high end is just what a few buyers will pay.
JMHO