Barker's Snipe Metal panel Colors

hoodoo · 31 December 2013, 08:08 PM

I searched the forum first but I could find the answer, I am sure it was there. Barkers snipe as preserved is clearly different from several representations I have seen. Was the fuselage of the aircraft repaired and repainted. Curious why so many representations show the light gray metal panels ( I presume correctly) and Barkers museum aircraft is green?
I apologize if this is a dumb question previously covered, as I am sure it has been.

'14-'18aviationcollector · 1 January 2014, 01:13 AM

Hi,

The fuselage of Barker's Snipe has been re - painted. Even the white bands were partly over - painted, making them too narrow. The light grey colour is correct for the Snipe and a few other types of aeroplanes.

As you might know, the green you referred to is a whole different can of worms. I don't know how accurate the colour used to paint the fuselage is. It is possible they may have even used original P.C. 10 if the restoration work was carried out relatively early.

Regards,

David.

hoodoo · 1 January 2014, 08:37 AM

[QUOTE='14-'18aviationcollector;646930]Hi,

The fuselage of Barker's Snipe has been re - painted. Even the white bands were partly over - painted, making them too narrow. The light grey colour is correct for the Snipe and a few other types of aeroplanes.

As you might know, the green you referred to is a whole different can of worms. I don't know how accurate the colour used to paint the fuselage is. It is possible they may have even used original P.C. 10 if the restoration work was carried out relatively early.

What about the Snipes that were painted overall "green" except for the lower "lip" of the cowling which was left what appears to be left natural metal? Where these late Snipes used in Russia (Russian source for picture apparently).
http://wwi.hut2.ru/avia/Snipe/snipe.htm
and here is Barker's Snipe postwar, note it still has the fuselage stripes. Nothing can be more frustrating than interpreting black and white images in varying light conditions but the metal portions do not appear to be light gray although there appears to be a different shade, perhaps due to texture between the metal parts and the fuselage. One question I have was barkers snipe totaled and then scavenged for parts after his mission and the fuselage only remaining, and if so, why repaint it? Barkers Snipe was a pre-preproduction or early production Snipe? I note that the vertical stabilizers were different on some Snipes. There is also a picture of what is id'd as
as Barkers snipe that appears to be overall green, was this the aircraft in later use before it was preserved or was it disassembled after Barker's mission.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sopwith_Snipe.jpg
Please don't think me argumentative, if the metal of Barkers snipe was gray, it was gray. It is just wierd that early photos seem to support that Barkers snipe had "green" metal panels.
Wingnut Wings's early Snipe is overall green (PC 10 or 12?) with the lower portion of the cowling left silver so it is apparent at least some early Snipes had an overall "green" camo applied and was not Barker's Snipe an early one?
http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/product?productid=3050
Aside from a minor issue I have with Wingnut Wings about Fokker DVII's and their Spandau trays, otherwise they are never wrong. I guess my question is there any clear photos showing Barker's Snipe with the gray metal panels and cowling?

hoodoo · 1 January 2014, 12:33 PM

A sixties/seventies report while authenticating the aircraft suggests that the green was applied possibly touching the stripes on the rear fuselage but also covering over the French gray. To me what is unanswered (as far as I can find) is whether the paint in question actually covered the French grey metal panels or touched up or covered an earlier field application of PC 10?

201 Squadron may have field applied green/or PC 10 overpaint to their Snipes that they received. The question could be if Barker, who had been flying this aircraft in GB for three months might have done the same? He was visiting 208 squadron at the time of his epic fight.

Has there been a professional evaluation of Barker's aircraft to determine if perhaps there are two layers of PC/10-green paint or if the green paint may have been field applied sometimes before the fight?

Scottie · 3 January 2014, 12:25 AM

Hoodoo,

There are several photographs online of his fuselage in the museum in Canada.

I have also been wondering what has happened to the fuselage as it clearly looks different from the well known photograph of Barker's Snipe after the famous action leading to the award of his Victoria Cross.

Careful study of the photographs appear to show a grey paint (Admiralty grey?) in small areas at the edges of the metal components, which may be the original colour?

Perhaps another member may have photographs which can illuminate further?

What ever happened to the rest of his aircraft.....the wings, engine, propellor and the famous red cock a snoot car mascot above the guns?

Maxim08 · 3 January 2014, 09:57 AM

A couple of answers and, probably, more confusion.

Barker in his Snipe in a Toronto, Ontario hangar, summer of 1919. I'll leave it up to others to guess what colour the metal work is.

This aircraft had been on display in the UK prior to shipping to Canada in May of that year. There is a very good image of Barker standing next to the aircraft which is much like this photo but includes the motor.

The aircraft was shipped with the engine and apparently arrived in Montreal intact. Somehow the engine mysteriously disappeared enroute to Toronto as can be seen in this photo. Hopefully one day the Bentley will reappear and be reunited with the rest. Note that the upper cowling shown in this picture has also disappeared.

Regards
John

hoodoo · 3 January 2014, 05:36 PM

[QUOTE=Scottie;647017]Hoodoo,

There are several photographs online of his fuselage in the museum in Canada.

I have also been wondering what has happened to the fuselage as it clearly looks different from the well known photograph of Barker's Snipe after the famous action leading to the award of his Victoria Cross.

Careful study of the photographs appear to show a grey paint (Admiralty grey?) in small areas at the edges of the metal components, which may be the original colour?

(respectfully snipped portion)

I think now that the Sopwith was issued in "French Gray" as a standard finish, and the green paint, whether it applied in the Summer/Fall of 1918 is clearly an overpaint, the question being a wartime overpaint. I think some Snipes clearly had the gray overpainted during the war. Perhaps some commanders felt that the gray might have been too conspicuous initially. Overpainting wa not uncommon during the war, starting approximately in May 1917 French Adrian helmets in the trenches were overpainted dark blue by mandate (I have guessed it might have been related to the French mutiny and a sign of compliance--have the French released the records of that period-I believe some concerning the mutiny were sealed to the near present day) with the inside of the crown being a light horizon blue. So many French reenactor helmets seem incorrectly painted with an odd color intermediate blue when the early horizon blue and the later dark blue were both very distinct blues. Back to Barkers Snipe, I think his was an "old one" made in early summer and he had been flying it in England in training and then flew it across the channel so it was not something that was a typical unit aircraft, it might have even had experimental early paint added at any time (and perhaps touched up). Then again, maybe it is just the photos which are perhaps vague but maybe less so as they are enlarged but it is so weird that green paint would have been applied to cover the gray unless perhaps the gray was badly deterioratedand someone thought it should be green. An expert study of the paint might be valuable? One thing is for sure, on some aircraft there is not much contrast between the metal parts an the doped/painted parts while on others there seems to be a lot more contrast, film/lighting differences as opposed to color.

I am extremely relieved that no one so far has screamed at me for being stupid. I do not claim to be a real student or scholar, it is just something that happens when I see something inconsistent.

'14-'18aviationcollector · 4 January 2014, 02:45 AM

Hi John,

I was going to type an in depth reply, but you and others probably know more about this Snipe than I do. Presumably you have studied it. I am surprised at the tatty condition it was in so soon after the war ended. No wonder it needed some restoration work. The fuselage fabric is missing from at least the starboard side, although I can see that it is still present on the top, rear of the fuselage. I wonder if it was simply unstitched, and was later re - applied. If it was not, and the fuselage fabric was replaced, it might explain why the stripes were re - painted too narrowly. Presumably the panels were the standard light grey, although as you alluded to it is not possible to tell from a black and white photo.

Presumably the Fokker D.VII fuselage does not exist any more. Does anyone know what happened to it?

Regards,

David.

Scottie · 4 January 2014, 06:19 AM

Sopwith Snipe

A few more pictures of the fuselage courtesy of WW1 models org

Maxim08 · 4 January 2014, 05:23 PM

David,

Unfortunately, no serial visible on the D VII so one can't conclusively say where it ended up. Judging by the cowling it's an O.A.W. variant, none of which survive in Canada. Some went to universities all of which were scrapped. The others, except Knowlton's 6810, were scrapped circa 1924 as being 'too dangerous' for the air force pilots to operate. One engine exists in the Ottawa collection earmarked for their Fokker built air frame and another with Vroeges Vogels' flying reproduction in the Netherlands.

Regards
John