Pre WW.I Photo Album

[musec]

Hello All,

Currently on ebay a pre WW. photo album at Foto Album Flieger 1911 - 1913 Alte Adler FLUGZEUG Kennungen EXTREM SELTEN | eBay

If anyone could help with a couple of questions, thanks in advance:

Crashed Aircraft B.6/12 Can anyone identify the aircraft either from its remains as shown in the photo or from the serial number?

Also any thoughts on the markings 36/36 on the tail of the DFW Mars?

Finally an ids of aircraft not identified by the seller would be welcome.

Regards,

Clint

[Flamingo]

Hi Clint

great you have a look at ebay for nice photos.

The first three show an LVG B.I biplane, I dont know about the monoplane except a 4 cylinder Argus.

The Mars may be called Lausitz, that would be within the geographical pattern. Some had names of towns, like München or -Dresden!

B 6 should be a Farman type pusher which were built by Albatros, LVG, Aviatik and DFW.

Halberstadt/Deutsche Bristol Werke built the Boxkite which can be excluded here because of the rectangular elevator.

[Aquilius]

Wow, a really interesting album. At least sold complete, but don't aks for the price!

From the variety of types, I suspect that album originates from the Döberitz field - the first army test and training airbase outside of Berlin. The aerial view could help to confirm the location. But the pine tree surrounding almost begs for Brandenburg.

To the aircraft:

The group poses in front of a LVG B.I, as Joachim had mentioned already.

#5 shows the rare Kondor Taube Typ B - or the second Taube-type of the Kondor Flugzeugwerke from early 1913. Note the belly radiator. Two of those machines should have been built and I have noted - "a planned presentation in Döberitz has not taken place". Just I can't believe those are Gelsenkirchen-Rotthausen photographs and it seems to prove my sources wrong. The evaluation might just not have brought an order.

#7 crash of B.6/12 - the letter fits other 12-serials I have seen. And the shape of those triple rudders indicate an Albatros MZ.2 (not the Doppeltaube, of course...). The low number or time - early 1912 - would match the circumstances, as then several copies of that type were ordered. For a positive identification I would need the main landing gear.
But to me, only the forerunner MZ.1 with a modified tail, or a "LVG D 4" (spring/summer 1912) remain as possible candidates, though the LVG had rudders of broader chord usually.

#8 Taube "Leipzig IV" A.42/12 - is an Etrich-Rumpler Militärtaube, with 70hp Argus I assume.

#9 accident with DFW Mars Pfeil-Doppeldecker and Rumpler (70hp Mercedes). If B.30/xy belongs to a serial, then from 1913. And this would fit with the first batch of 6 machines ordered B.26-31/13.

#10 again a DFW Mars Pfeil-Doppeldecker with an interesting view of the outer wing supporting struts. I have the feeling this is another example photographers in those days cheated their audience. No idea about the No.36. Not a serial obviously and this type appeared in late 1912, so a 1912 serial is impossible.

#11 the not crashed aircraft here are a Harlan Typ 1912 and a forerunner of the Albatros DE or a late 3-strutter Doppeltaube - could have been the "Albatros Fledermaus" (this chapter I haven't concluded yet)
and finally another Taube, for which I need some more time to name...

A lot of unique pictures for sure!


Cheers

Aquilius

[musec]

Hello Joachim and Aquilius,

Thank you both for your thoughtful responses. It is good to have the identities of some of these difficult to identify aircraft.

You both make interesting points that may assist in the eventual definitive identification of the B.6/12. Now obviously, this is speculation only, but I wonder if the location might be somewhere in Saxony. There are the three aircraft with specifically names of locations in Saxony. Lausitz,Leipzig IV and Dresden. Also DFW were, as you know based in Leipzig and a large number of the aircraft in the photos are DFW built. Following up on Aquilius' possible identification of B.6/12 - wild speculation on my part (and I shouldn't speculate!), I know, but might possibly point to this being one of the Farmans licence built by DFW.

Regards,

Clint

[Aquilius]

Clint,

I am not sticking to my identifications implicitely. But I cannot confirm your speculations. There are too many contradictions.

First to the question of a possible DFW-built type - I simply need to say no!
Unless there was a to me unknown machine, which I hardly can believe would have been taken over by the army. The biplanes from Leipzig (including the Erich Schmidt/Sachsen Doppeldecker) do not match the remains in that crash picture. And the DFW had no licence to built Farmans. In late Summer/Autumn already the DFW developed the "Mars" fuselage biplanes, after focusing on the Taube before. You know, 1912 was the year of the "Taube" in Germany, somewhat similar to the triplane craze in 1917.
Here the possible DFW Farman types:

SFW/DFW Thiele from 1911 (above) and DFW-Farman type of 1912 (below)

After checking again what I have on German built Farman-type biplanes I must exclude AGO/Otto and Aviatik also. Just Albatros and LVG machines were hard to distinguish as both copied each other in their door-by-door workshops at Johannisthal.


A possible Saxon-based flying field as well would barely qualify. All the pictures in the Album seem to have been taken around Spring 1913 as most of the aircraft appeared in mid/late 1912 and early 1913. At that time the Lindenthal airfield was transformed into a DFW company flying ground, when around May 1913 almost all other constructors moved to the new "Luftschiffhafen" opened at Leipzig-Mockau. Buildings and surrounding do not resemble the Lindenthal or Mockau installations. Again the Dresden-Kaditz airport, opened in October 1913 and the military airbase at Großenhain (March 1914) had a different appearance. On the latter you wouldn't have met aircraft like the Albatros Doppeltaube, Rumplers from 1911 or even the Kondor Taube. And even if Knoblauch served with the first Saxon airmen unit in 1913 - that was stationed at Döberitz until March 1914.

And while writing this answer, I finally found an aerial image of the Döberitz airfield from 1917. Compare yourself:
PENNULA | Flugplatz Döberitz mit historischem Luftbild von 1917 | Luftfahrt Geschichte und Historie

Regards

Andreas

[musec]

Hello Andreas,

Thanks for your further researches and I'm more than happy to accept your conclusion that the crashed B.6/12 is most likely an Albatros machine or perhaps a LVG.I'd paricularly like to say thanks for posting the images of the two DFW machines and not having seen these before now accept that identifying the B.6/12 as a DFW and the location as possibly in Saxony, as I feared, overly speculative.

One question,if I may you are stating that Knoblauch did serve with a Saxon unit?

Regards,

Clint

[Aquilius]

You always may ask!

I did not state Lt. W. Knoblauch served with the Saxon army.
What I wanted to say is, that if he would have served with the Saxons, he must have been stationed at Döberitz when these photos were taken.

But after all, this is unlikely as well. According to the ebay-seller Knoblauch served with the "Fliegertruppe" from 1911 on. The Kingdom of Saxony, then a much more independent country within the German Empire only in Autumn 1913 established their first air battalion - and until their own military airfield was created the unit was send to Döberitz, for training probably.

Since you mentioned a possible Saxon flying ground, I checked where that could have been. And with the first Saxon air unit I ended up at Döberitz again.

Of course I tried to find a trail of Knoblauch, but had no success. Haven't found his name among German pilots. But he could have been a ground crew member, or an observer who took some photographs occasionaly. Don't know if there is more to find at all.


Regards

Andreas

[Aquilius]

I just had a look at the Farman-type pusher again.

What do you think?

Cheers

Aquilius

[musec]

Hi Andreas,

Thanks for the fine detective work and the wonderful close up of B.6/12. Nice Carl Zeiss magnifying glass too!. So with great probability a Albatros MZ.2

Thanks Again,

Clint

[Tork1945]

Originally Posted by Aquilius

#10 again a DFW Mars Pfeil-Doppeldecker with an interesting view of the outer wing supporting struts. I have the feeling this is another example photographers in those days cheated their audience. No idea about the No.36. Not a serial obviously and this type appeared in late 1912, so a 1912 serial is impossible.

Aquilius

I happen to have another print of this same picture which shows more at the right and left side. The one in the album is somewhat clipped, possibly for reasons to fit it into the album ?

The number '36' on the rudder (moveable part and fixed part) can also be seen on the fuselage in the front just after the engine. My guess is that this is a production number of some sort. No Militärzulassungsnummer is visible on this picture.

I could not comprehend your remark about the possible cheating of photographers in those days. What is exactly cheated in this particular picture ?

Tork1945