Pfalz DIII 1370/17 Vfw Hecht Jasta 10

sator · 26 October 2013, 10:40 PM

Does anyone know for sure if the stripes on the fuselage were black or yellow and was the tail green or yellow. I,ve seen profiles of both and i tend to think the stripes were black and the tail was green but don,t know for sure which one is correct.

Raineranton · 27 October 2013, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sator

Does anyone know for sure if the stripes on the fuselage were black or yellow and was the tail green or yellow. I,ve seen profiles of both and i tend to think the stripes were black and the tail was green but don,t know for sure which one is correct.

Hi Sator,

Hecht landed with this machine behind British lines on 27 December 1917. Hecht was taken prisoner and his Pfalz became the subject of technical scrutinity. The tail was green and the stripes were black.

Regards

Rainer

Gregvan · 27 October 2013, 01:33 PM

Hi,

Rainer's absolutely correct. The "yellow stripes" and "yellow tail" misconception were common in old interpretations (such as in the Munson Book on WWI fighters, and in the old "Profile"), but that was before people really did their homework and uncovered the actual RFC intelligence reports, etc.

The stripes (including the one on the top wing) were definitely black, and the tail was definitely green. The nose, struts and wheel covers were chrome yellow. By the way, the background to the fuselage cross was factory-finish silver, not white as some would have it.

Best regards,

Greg

R Gannon · 27 October 2013, 03:10 PM

Guys

I think the confusion over the tail colour stems from G 93 - the Pfalz DIII which was downed in British lines by Lt GE Thomson of 46 Sqn on 30 Nov 17, which as Greg's Pfalz book notes was reported to have a yellow tail. This of course was the first Pfalz to be brought down in British lines.

Cheers Russ

Gregvan · 27 October 2013, 03:24 PM

Russ,

That's partly it. I also think that early researchers like Peter Gray (and myself!) assumed that since Jasta 10's unit color was known to be yellow, all the markings on the unit's Pfalz were yellow. Not that it wasn't a reasonable assumption. We now know that many Jasta 10 pilots chose to display personal colors on the tails, as suggested by Richthofen himself. Demandt's 4116/17 had yellow, Hecht had green, and others had different colors.

Greg

tcrean7828 · 27 October 2013, 03:36 PM

Mates,
Outstanding - all answered questions before I got to the party - Very good.

tcrean7828

tom

Raineranton · 28 October 2013, 11:15 AM

Here is a picture of Hecht's Pfalz after the capture.....

Regards

Rainer

R Gannon · 30 October 2013, 03:20 AM

Quote:

That's partly it. I also think that early researchers like Peter Gray (and myself!) assumed that since Jasta 10's unit color was known to be yellow, all the markings on the unit's Pfalz were yellow. Not that it wasn't a reasonable assumption. We now know that many Jasta 10 pilots chose to display personal colors on the tails, as suggested by Richthofen himself. Demandt's 4116/17 had yellow, Hecht had green, and others had different colors.

Hi Greg

But are we not indulging in leaps of faith here? I don't believe the available evidence in regards G 93 in any way substantiates that it was 4116/17 with a yellow tail and flown by Js 10's Ltn Demandt. The Demant assumption dates back to the old C&C US, but the hard evidence is that G 93 was a Pfalz DIII with a werk number of 1116, which somehow looks to have mutated to 4116/17. Personally I would suggest the pilot of G 93 was more realistically Ltn H Hofacker of Js 33 (as is stated in several works), who is recorded as a pow at Havrincourt on 30 Nov 17 and dow on1 Dec 17 in a British dressing station. There were after all only two German machines down in British lines on this date, the other being G94 the FA 19 LVG brought down by Capt JTB McCudden of 56 Sqn. The truly hard evidence for Demant is that he failed to return from a combat mission at 1600GT and Cambrai (quite German side) is the location most often given for his loss. My bet is that Demandt victim of Capt Maybery of 56 Sqn.

Cheers Russ

Graeme · 30 October 2013, 02:11 PM

Hi Russ

I have G.93 as the Pfalz brought down by Lt G E Thomson; RFC Communique number 116 says "Lieut G Thomson, No 46 Squadron, observed three EA flying west so attacked and shot one down which fell in our lines."

This was at 15:10BT, north-east of Flesquières - a couple of miles south of Bourlon - and I have got Demandt pencilled-in against this claim, being based on the information in Rick Duiven's Jasta 10 log - "30Nov17 Ltn.d.R. Friedrich Demandt is KIA at 16.00 hours N. of Flesquières in Pfalz D.III 4116/17."

The other claim I have in this area at about this time was by Capt E R Tempest of No 64 Sqn, who claimed an Albatros scout out of control north-west of Bourlon Wood at 15:20BT.

Maybery made two claims for Albatros scouts, one crashed and one that broke up in the air, both over Bourlon Wood, but I have no time for these claims.

Graeme

R Gannon · 31 October 2013, 04:58 AM

Hi Graeme

This is what Bodenchatz wrote up in his original JG I KTB - Seit 4.00 Lt Demandt (Jasta 10) vom Jagdflug nicht Zurueckgekehrt. And in my opinion everything written since has been tainted by twenty twenty hindsight. And on that score I would call on those who champion the Demandt / G 93 resolution to qualify where the 4117/17 serial number has come from.

Cheers Russ