Russian D.VIII help?

[JohnFitz]

Greatings folks, Can anyone suggest what the colors might be of this bird? Thanks.

[FOKKERJ]

Might be Olive Green with Red Stars.
Couldn't you make this image any smaller than a Postage Stamp?

[JohnFitz]

Oops, sorry Fokker J I didn't realize how small it was. I'll see If I can enlarge it some. I would have guessed it was a dark or blackish green. I think the bottom side of the fuselage is silver grey but it could just be the reflection from the snow.

[JohnFitz]

Okay, This is the best I can do. It just gets more blurry the larger I make it. Have to see If there is a better photo on the net somewhere.

[John McKenzie]

Hi John ,
Underside of wings :-
The red star does not seem to be placed on a white circle as in the A/C on the left ...This might suggest that the background (ie the underside of the wing) was generally of light shade , perhaps the original Fokker stain/dye colours , possibly faded towards a yellowish- cream/grey degree ( varnished Birch ply , appearing dark due to film type ) .....Can't see any advantage in adding weight by painting green ...though a renovating coat of "clear"(sic) oil varnish could have been applied before or after the red star ( cant say if the rus' red star was oil base paint ).

Fuselage & T/plane :-
Silver ( ie anti UV , Aluminium loaded dope) would not serve any great advantage applied to the "underside" of fuselage fabric , (or wing) as it adds unnecessary weight .
Fuselage sides could be the original hex' fabric , overcoated with ????? greyish -green???? semi-opaque wash .....a better photo would be required to hazzard a guess ....also ref. to other A/C with similar period schemes .
The general colour of the terrain & time of year , should /might be a clue .

JMHO ...........JM

[catch 22]

A better copy of the photo shows that the underside of the wing was eventually overpainted with the same glossy (dark green?) paint as the fuselage - see also fuselage side and bottom portion. IMHO the lighter areas are just reflections from the snow.

BTW since there was only one ex-polish D.VIII captured by the Soviets during the Ukrainian campaign, this is probably the same a/c before receiving any new paint.


Both photos are from here.

[JohnFitz]

Thanks guy's, I do agree with you catch 22.

[John McKenzie]

The "Polish" machine , photo above , is an EV rather than a DVIII .

I would be very interested to know the reasoning behind , WHY anyone would wish to paint the Underside of the wing Dark Green .???...
Far more likely that it is in fact , lightly stained & Varnished Ply , appearing dark due to the film type ,..and therefore not requiring the white background disc to the red star ..( as in the other machine in the photo )....
The Red star against a dark green background would surely require at least either an outline or background in white , which clearly it does not have ....( however , this would not necessary if the wing was a light greyish / orangy cream colour of varnished ply ) .

[FOKKERJ]

Hi John Fritz,

Much better on the 2nd image.

Catch22,

Nice fotos! I agree about the underside reflections.

Hi John McKenzie,

All excellent points.
Wasn't the Red Star fairly new still?
Perhaps they hadn't transitioned to the later White outline bordering the Star and felt that the Red was sufficient contrast to a Green to Dark Green.
I feel that there was a lot of chaos in Russia at this time with their Political scene changing and there might not have been much continuity at this time.
This seems to be a much used color scheme used during WW2. JMHO

Cheers, FOKKERJ

[John McKenzie]

Hi Jay .

Look at the wing of the bi-plane that just shows to the left of the DVIII photo ...this clearly shows a red star on a WHITE DISC ....showing that they HAD transitioned to a white field at this point , if & when the background was a dark ( non contrasting *) colour .....the DVIII probably being a later aquisition than the bi-plane in the main photo .

Also , ( remembering that it snows quite a bit in Russia , whitness the Skis on the Fokker)....
*****( 1 ).....You have not given any reason as to WHY they or anyone would think to paint (weight) the Underside of a wing to match the (summer) terrain , rather than the sky ....*****( assuming the machines were not stored inverted ! )

I have suggested some plausible reasons why the underside "appears " dark , but was in fact a light colour , hence the contrast of the red star against the background is sufficient in this case as not to warrant a white disc .

***** ( 2 ) ..However there is indeed , ample proof "in the same photo" that a white disc background to the red star , was currently employed on other aircraft if the need arose ( ie to contrast against a dark colour) .*****

Similar confusion has occured in a number of WWI German aircraft photos , where the fuselage photographed "dark" & therefore it had been assumed that they were painted/stained a dark colour .....however in many cases , the Mil' numbers have been almost undetectable in the photo , having been painted in black .....although in practice the numbers were easily seen against the "real" colour of orany/yellow/-ish of varnished plywood .
In cases (eg. RolDVIb etc) where a fuselage really has been camoflaged darker colours , then the serials have been painted in a contrasting colour such as white or light blue .
Jay , please explain your thoughts & answers as to the above statements (1) & (2) .starting / ending ***** ..............

PS * ..by "non contrasting colour" , we are talking about that which is detectable from a reasonable distance , where all colours tend to grey , ( the darkness of red & green being similar at distance )... for it is mainly the dark against lightness that provides the visual contrast ....Hence the need or not , for a White or light background .

Regards John M

PS ....Check out the Spad 7 wing red star in the EV photo .////Pos a ? yellow/cream/ off-white background Disc ?