Breguet's Aircraft ID Challenge #1169

Dave_Kent · 27 May 2013, 09:02 PM

Hello:

Although the photo does not show the entire machine, I believe that both the type and the pilot who reportedly requested it should be provided.

Dave

Scoreboard at the end of the Challenge #1168: Aviatik 30.14

189.10 Dave_Kent ☼☼☼
159.45 Rbailey ☼☼☼
153.40 Varese2002 ☼☼☼
72.10 richard B ☼☼
45.60 Aquilius ☼
41.60 Tork1945☼
38.55 Lodzermensch ☼
33.30 Cruze ☼
30.58 Rod Filan ☼
27.50 YavorD ☼
24.75 Froggy
16.90 Flamingo
13.00 Breguet
10.50 matte_kudasai
10.45 GregE
10.30 Patrick
09.70 Dan-San
09.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
09.20 Rufe
08.40 Brad
08.40 JohnMacG
07.70 Berman
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.50 Doc
07.25 Ermeio
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Ampovandak
06.50 Albrecht
06.30 HoHun
06.10 Jim
06.10 '14-'18aviationcollector
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Alex1965
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
06.00 Old Man
06.00 Sobrien
05.80 RobW
05.70 vossiewulf
05.70 AROTH
05.70 dpolglaze
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.40 John McKenzie
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Gilles
05.20 Maze
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 AL FORBES
05.00 Kristjanr
05.00 SCMc
05.00 Tom L

............Above this line, have to wait 12 hours
........... Below this line, may start immediately

04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.00 greenknight
04.00 Luf-Rick
03.00 Catfish
03.00 Linhawk
02.50 Gregoire
02.50 Rexee
02.30 Cigogne
02.30 ckingh5
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 albatros1234
02.00 austin08
02.00 Lupodimontenero
02.00 Misa2
02.00 Rickenbaron
02.00 Totalspoon
01.70 Kilian
01.60 airplane176
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.50 Albatros_Ace
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Mike Westrop
01.00 missouri mule
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 SL DIII
01.00 Tripehound
00.90 Stig Jarlevik
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 Mad Mac
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 Douglas7
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Johnnick
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd30
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fisher

Previous: Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's Aircraft Challenge* --

The rules :

1. The thread title must be "Breguet's Aircraft ID Challenge #......"
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.
4. The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference).
5. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified (always check the list at Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's Aircraft Challenge* -- when in doubt !) and the poster re-post within the same thread, the 12hours handicap beginning from that point.
6. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted.
7. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
8. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
9. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
10. If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
11. The final arbiter in relation to questions about the rules is BREGUET.

Brad · 28 May 2013, 05:47 AM

Dave,

How about making the "aces" identify the pilot, but the non-aces just the aircraft? This is already a fairly easy one, but they could be thrown off by that one specific feature...

Catfish · 28 May 2013, 06:02 AM

Hmm don't know whether this is THAT simple, i miss a certain detail on this one ..

Dave_Kent · 28 May 2013, 06:16 AM

Hi:

I like Brad's thinking, so how about

NON-ACES receive 1 point for the machine + 1 point for the pilot

ACES receive .5 point for the machine + .5 point for the pilot

If you just know part of the answer, give me what you know.

Dave

Catfish · 28 May 2013, 06:24 AM

But then i think it is 160 hp-powered Fokker E.IV, built for Immelmann on his request for three MGs.
The double-row 14-cylinder Oberursel III tended to overheat, which is why there were holes cut into the cowling - which is what i missed. But if this is the first type which Immelmann flew, it all makes sense ..

Dave_Kent · 28 May 2013, 06:51 AM

The timing worked out well for Catfish, our newest Ace!!

Dave

Scoreboard at the end of the Challenge #1169: Fokker E. IV of Max Immelmann

189.10 Dave_Kent ☼☼☼
159.45 Rbailey ☼☼☼
153.40 Varese2002 ☼☼☼
72.10 richard B ☼☼
45.60 Aquilius ☼
41.60 Tork1945☼
38.55 Lodzermensch ☼
33.30 Cruze ☼
30.58 Rod Filan ☼
27.50 YavorD ☼
24.75 Froggy
16.90 Flamingo
13.00 Breguet
10.50 matte_kudasai
10.45 GregE
10.30 Patrick
09.70 Dan-San
09.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
09.20 Rufe
08.40 Brad
08.40 JohnMacG
07.70 Berman
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.50 Doc
07.25 Ermeio
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Ampovandak
06.50 Albrecht
06.30 HoHun
06.10 Jim
06.10 '14-'18aviationcollector
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Alex1965
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
06.00 Old Man
06.00 Sobrien
05.80 RobW
05.70 vossiewulf
05.70 AROTH
05.70 dpolglaze
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.40 John McKenzie
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Gilles
05.20 Maze
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 AL FORBES
05.00 Catfish
05.00 Kristjanr
05.00 SCMc
05.00 Tom L

............Above this line, have to wait 12 hours
........... Below this line, may start immediately

04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.00 greenknight
04.00 Luf-Rick
03.00 Linhawk
02.50 Gregoire
02.50 Rexee
02.30 Cigogne
02.30 ckingh5
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 albatros1234
02.00 austin08
02.00 Lupodimontenero
02.00 Misa2
02.00 Rickenbaron
02.00 Totalspoon
01.70 Kilian
01.60 airplane176
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.50 Albatros_Ace
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Mike Westrop
01.00 missouri mule
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 SL DIII
01.00 Tripehound
00.90 Stig Jarlevik
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 Mad Mac
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 Douglas7
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Johnnick
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd30
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fisher

Catfish · 28 May 2013, 12:26 PM

Hello,
you gave 2 points to me ?

Thank you very much but i thought you would want to have that discussed first

So i will show twice the engagement in further challenges ..
(Now on the hunt for a not-yet-posted UFO ..)

Thanks and greetings,
Kai

rammjaeger · 29 May 2013, 03:22 AM

Catfish,

I don´t want to spoil the party but the claim that this E.IV was built for Immelmann on his request for three MGs comes from Fokker himself and is a very dubios one - as so many claims by Fokker in his book "The Flying Dutchman". Peter Grosz was very correct if he remarked that Fokker´s writing is very entertaining but not correct writing of history.

I have never seen a serious document proving that Max was ever flying a Fokker E.IV with 3 MG. His machine E.IV 127/15 was not even prepared for 3 MG by the manufacturer, very different to the first 3 of the group of 6 first built E.IV. However, to my knowledge only the very first (pictured above) machine is known to have carried 3 MG for some time.

Immelmann only got the sixth of the first 6 E.IV, later than Parschau, Wintgens and Boelcke - this is hardly evidence for Fokker´s claim that this aircraft was especially built for Immelmann.

The pictured above machine should be E.IV 122/15, the first prototype.
I think Josef Scott will comment here too.

Catfish · 29 May 2013, 06:22 AM

Hello,
not sure, but found this in Imrie's book " ... and although the type [E.IV with 3 MGs] was reportedly flown with success by Immelmann subsequent Fokker E.IVs were fitted with only two guns. ..." (Vintage Warbirds No.6 - Fokker Fighters of WW1, Alex Imrie: page 15).
Would be interesting to see the sources, for either conclusion.

OT I read that Boelcke drily said, after having tested an E.IV (which?), that " .. a stronger engine does not make a better plane."

Thanks and greetings,
Kai

rammjaeger · 29 May 2013, 07:41 AM

Hi Kai,

I think Mr Imrie based his statement in this - meanwhile 27 year-old - book on Fokkers report who did claim just this!

In 2004 Peter Grosz and Volker Koos knew in their book that already Parschau´s machine made its front tests in October 1915 with only 2 MG. And rember that already earlier Fokker´s test show for the military with 122/15 with 3 MG in late September 1915 had failed. After this experience a continuation of this risky armament configuration would not have made any sense.

So, I can wait if anybody is able to come up with real evidence for a 3 MG-Fokker flown in action by Max. IMHO way too risky and heavy for the front!