Breguet's Aircraft ID Challenge #1087

[Brad]

At first glance this may appear to be both easy and a duplicate. Pay attention to the details please! (It isn't THAT hard, I want the non-aces like me to have a chance.)



Scoreboard at the start of Challenge No 1087:

169.90 Dave_Kent ☼☼☼
153.40 Varese2002 ☼☼☼
145.65 Rbailey☼☼☼
67.60 richard B ☼☼
43.00 Aquilius ☼
38.55 Lodzermensch ☼
33.30 Cruze ☼
30.90 Tork1945 ☼
30.58 Rod Filan ☼
26.80 YavorD ☼
22.55 Froggy
16.90 Flamingo
13.00 Breguet
10.50 matte_kudasai
10.45 GregE
10.30 Patrick
09.70 Dan-San
09.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
09.20 Rufe
08.40 JohnMacG
07.70 Berman
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.50 Doc
07.25 Ermeio
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Ampovandak
06.30 HoHun
06.10 '14-'18aviationcollector
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
06.00 Old Man
06.00 Sobrien
05.80 RobW
05.70 AROTH
05.70 dpolglaze
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.40 John McKenzie
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Gilles
05.20 Maze
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 AL FORBES
05.00 Kristjanr
05.00 SCMc
05.00 Tom L ......................... At and above this line, have to wait 12 hours

04.90 Brad ........... At and below this line, may start immediately
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.00 greenknight
04.00 Luf-Rick
03.00 Catfish
03.00 Jim
03.00 Linhawk
02.50 Gregoire
02.50 Rexee
02.30 Cigogne
02.30 ckingh5
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 albatros1234
02.00 austin08
02.00 Lupodimontenero
02.00 Misa2
02.00 Rickenbaron
01.70 Kilian
01.60 airplane176
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.50 Albatros_Ace
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Mike Westrop
01.00 missouri mule
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 SL DIII
01.00 Tripehound
00.90 Stig Jarlevik
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 Mad Mac
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 Douglas7
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Johnnick
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd30
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fisher

Previous: Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's Aircraft Challenge* --

The Rules:

1. The thread title must be "Breguet's Aircraft ID Challenge #......"
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.
4. The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference).
5. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified (always check the list at Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's Aircraft Challenge* -- when in doubt !) and the poster re-post within the same thread, the 12hours handicap beginning from that point.
6. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted.
7. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
8. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
9. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
10. If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
11. The final arbiter in relation to questions about the rules is BREGUET.

[Dave_Kent]

I believe that this single engine biplane of unequal span, with a long fuselage is a development of the Short S. 41 family of machines, possibly the S. 50 landplane trainer.

Dave

[Tork1945]

The Russian markings are carefully photoshopped away, but this is a Sikorsky S.16ser biplane being man handled by Russian military personnel (look at the uniforms).

The Sikorsky S-16 [Сикорский С 16]was a small single bay biplane, single or two seat fighter with a four wheel undercarriage (presumably for the rough Russian airfields). Rotary engine (Gnôme).

By the way the designation Sikorsky is more of a latter day identification as Sikorsky was the chief designer of the R-BVZ [Russo-Baltiisky Vagonny Zavod - Русско-Балтийский вагонный завод]. In that time the machine was identified as the R-BVZ S-16.

Tork1945

[Tork1945]

Looking aroudn I found Breguet Challenge #791. The correct identification was here given as the S-16з. The differences between the several subversions are given by Lodzermensch here.

If I understand it – S-16 was a designation given to three pre-production machines with numbers 154, 155, 156. Serial aircraft were called S-16ser, then there were three modified versions – S-16a, S-16 floatplane and S-16з. I have no idea why the third version was marked out with digit 3 instead of Cyrillic б or в (Latin b and v respectively) for example – it is second or third letter of Cyrillic alphabet.

To make the matter more complicated – Polikarpov called the third version C-16C (according to Russian text) – it means S-16S. This is another error in English translation.

Tork1945

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Tork1945

The Russian markings are carefully photoshopped away, but this is a Sikorsky S.16ser biplane being man handled by Russian military personnel (look at the uniforms).

The Sikorsky S-16 [Сикорский С 16]was a small single bay biplane, single or two seat fighter with a four wheel undercarriage (presumably for the rough Russian airfields). Rotary engine (Gnôme).

By the way the designation Sikorsky is more of a latter day identification as Sikorsky was the chief designer of the R-BVZ [Russo-Baltiisky Vagonny Zavod - Русско-Балтийский вагонный завод]. In that time the machine was identified as the R-BVZ S-16.

Tork1945

Tork is absolutely correct, this is a Sikorskly S-16ser.

The first S-16 was an equal span biplane with 4 ailerons and slightly swept wings. The second and third aircraft were equal span biplanes with unswept wings and 4 ailerons. The first 2 aircraft were fitted with the 80 hp Gnome, and the third with a 60 hp Kalep (spelling?) of Russian manufacture.

The first production batch (serial numbers 201-215) were the S-16ser, which were unequal span biplanes with ailerons on only the upper wings, except aircraft number 210, which was designated the S-16a, and fitted with a 100 hp Gnome instead of the 80 hp version in the rest of the batch.

The later S-16-3 (the 3 should be in subscript, no dash between, but I don't know how to do that in this text editor) was an unequal span biplane with 2 ailerons and a raised turtledeck, also fitted with a 100 hp Gnome.

The S-16 has the distinction of being the first Russian aircraft to be fitted with a synchronized machine gun firing through the propellor. It carried various machine guns on different aircraft in service, including a synchronized Vickers mounted above the right longeron, a synchronized Colt "potato digger" mounted above the left longeron, and an unsyncrhonized Colt mounted above the upper wing.

Russian ace Yuri Gilsher lost his lower leg in a crash of an S-16, after which he was fitted with a prosthetic leg and continued to fly.

Although slow and underpowered, the various S-16 versions continued in service with the Red Army until the early-mid 1920's.

Scoreboard at the start of Challenge No 1087:

169.90 Dave_Kent ☼☼☼
153.40 Varese2002 ☼☼☼
145.65 Rbailey☼☼☼
67.60 richard B ☼☼
43.00 Aquilius ☼
38.55 Lodzermensch ☼
33.30 Cruze ☼
31.90 Tork1945 ☼
30.58 Rod Filan ☼
26.80 YavorD ☼
22.55 Froggy
16.90 Flamingo
13.00 Breguet
10.50 matte_kudasai
10.45 GregE
10.30 Patrick
09.70 Dan-San
09.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
09.20 Rufe
08.40 JohnMacG
07.70 Berman
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.50 Doc
07.25 Ermeio
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Ampovandak
06.30 HoHun
06.10 '14-'18aviationcollector
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
06.00 Old Man
06.00 Sobrien
05.80 RobW
05.70 AROTH
05.70 dpolglaze
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.40 John McKenzie
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Gilles
05.20 Maze
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 AL FORBES
05.00 Kristjanr
05.00 SCMc
05.00 Tom L ......................... At and above this line, have to wait 12 hours

04.90 Brad ........... At and below this line, may start immediately
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.00 greenknight
04.00 Luf-Rick
03.00 Catfish
03.00 Jim
03.00 Linhawk
02.50 Gregoire
02.50 Rexee
02.30 Cigogne
02.30 ckingh5
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 albatros1234
02.00 austin08
02.00 Lupodimontenero
02.00 Misa2
02.00 Rickenbaron
01.70 Kilian
01.60 airplane176
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.50 Albatros_Ace
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Mike Westrop
01.00 missouri mule
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 SL DIII
01.00 Tripehound
00.90 Stig Jarlevik
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 Mad Mac
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 Douglas7
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Johnnick
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd30
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fisher

[Tork1945]

Originally Posted by Brad

The first 2 aircraft were fitted with the 80 hp Gnome, and the third with a 60 hp Kalep (spelling?) of Russian manufacture.

I checked the name of the engine of the third machine in the history of Shavrov (in Russian language) and it is given there as 'Калеп'. So the name is correct I presume. I have been unable to find much more than this on the elusive Kalep engine, only that it developed 60 hp. May have been a rotary engine, but that is speculation.

Tork1945

[Lodzermensch]

Hello,

Originally Posted by Tork1945

I checked the name of the engine of the third machine in the history of Shavrov (in Russian language) and it is given there as 'Калеп'. So the name is correct I presume. I have been unable to find much more than this on the elusive Kalep engine, only that it developed 60 hp. May have been a rotary engine, but that is speculation.

Tork1945

Here you are. The Kalep engine is on the right.

Gnome & Kalep

It's on the left in the picture below.



Regards

Marek

[Brad]

It is a rotary, but I don't know anything further about it.