old propeller

wingandprop · 1 April 2012, 01:01 AM

I have an old prop that i would really like some more info on. I used to have the site address for a group of prop collectors, but I seem to have lost it. If anyone can provide that address I would be very appreciative. Just in case someone here can shed some light on this prop, I have enclosed some pictures. The shape really strikes me as sometime in the 30's, but there are some things that may point the other way. For one thing, as you can see from the pic of the straight edge placed against the rear face of the prop, it is absolutely flat whereas later props were contoured on both faces of the prop. It also has an eight hole hub whereas the later hubs were more commonly six holes. It is 98 inches long (8' 2" or 249 cm). If you see the black lines across the face of the prop, that is the line above which there used to be fabric, apparently torn off by someone in order to make the prop "prettier" for a new coat of varnish (of which it only received part). The story that came with it was that it came off an old flying boat, but I have no way of knowing whether there is any truth at all in that story. So far as I can tell, it is totally devoid of markings except to mark one blade as blade 1 and the other as 2. (The 2 shows up in one of the pics. If you know why they would number the blades on a prop with non detachable blades, that will be worth the price of admission alone!) The only other marking is a deeply struck "B5255" around the hole for the propeller shaft. These markings are very deep. If someone sanded so much that they took off the other markings, this prop must be a lot smaller than it used to be! Judging from the marks in the hub, the shaft was splined. If anyone has any insight at all I would appreciate it. I would be surprised if it is WW1, but you never know. Even if you don't know anything but the name of the propeller fans' website, I would appreciate it.

Matt

(Propeller? fans? That was a joke son....You need a bigger mitt boy, they're going right over your head!)

kristjanr · 1 April 2012, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingandprop

I have an old prop that i would really like some more info on. I used to have the site address for a group of prop collectors, but I seem to have lost it...

It's hard to say who made a prop without having the decal or some sort of proving stamps or inscriptions. Sometimes the maker would etch a text into the central hub or one of the blades that told you which kind of engine or even which aircraft type the prop was rated for, example:

http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/a...0c3d54786c.jpg

Unfortunately it looks like you are SOL in that department. I keep wishing that somebody published an book entitled "The definitive illustrated guide to aircraft propellers of WWI" but so far as I know there isn't one.

The propeller-heads website:
Wooden Propellers

Their forum:
Wooden Propeller Forum - Powered by vBulletin

wingandprop · 1 April 2012, 06:44 AM

Thanks much for the website. At this point I think my only hope is that someone will recognize the hub number or the form of the prop. Thanks again. (Of course, anyone out there with a theory is still free to pitch it.)

Matt

kristjanr · 1 April 2012, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingandprop

Thanks much for the website. At this point I think my only hope is that someone will recognize the hub number or the form of the prop. Thanks again. (Of course, anyone out there with a theory is still free to pitch it.)

Matt

The best bet is actually to go by the general shape of the prop, it's features and the number. If this was a German prop it looks vaguely like those made by a manufacturer named 'Schwarz' but it could just as easily be French or British. There was a lot of cross border license manufacture in the aircraft industry prior to WWI. Pfalz, for example built French Moranes under license and Gotha built Avro seaplanes under license. Oberursel engines were actually French Gnomes built under license. The thing to do is go to a specialist forum like the one I linked to and ask. Sooner or later somebody will be able to give you a very well educated guess as to the identity. Remember that this prop could easily date from the WWI period and into relatively modern times. They continued to make wooden props essentially similar to those used on WWI aircraft into the 1950s and even the 60s and as far as I know there are still a few specialists who make wooden props.

Kaiser Bill · 1 April 2012, 07:13 AM

It appears to have a "safety" yellow painted tip. Was this even done in WW1??
I'm asking because I don't know. I've never seen painted (yellow) tips on any props except those in WW2.

kristjanr · 1 April 2012, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaiser Bill

It appears to have a "safety" yellow painted tip. Was this even done in WW1??
I'm asking because I don't know. I've never seen painted (yellow) tips on any props except those in WW2.

I've seen painted propeller tips on WWI props and the metal coating of the tips and edges was also done, usually in brass. As for colors I'm not really a prop expert. This prop could easily come from something used during WWII and made by any number of US/British/German/Soviet manufacturers. People tend to think any wooden prop is WWI and get really disappointed when they walk into an auction house and find out it came from a WWII trainer sold as surplus to a crop-duster company in 1946. It brings the price down from thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars to hundreds of dollars or less.

robkamm · 1 April 2012, 09:10 AM

sensenich bros prop built between 10/43 and 12/43 .

wingandprop · 1 April 2012, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robkamm

sensenich bros prop built between 10/43 and 12/43 .

Well that's pretty specific! Any idea what it was from? No disappointment here whatever it was from. I got it for free from my uncle who flew B 17s with 15th AF during WW2. He's the one who was told (by whoever he got it from) that it was from a pre war era flying boat. I am surprised to hear its from WW2 though, only because their is no contour to the rear face of the prop: it is a very flat reverse. I had read that by the late twenties they had learned that was not as aerodynamically efficient as providing some curve to the rear face. Apparently I was misinformed?

It does look a LOT like the prop on a PT 22 (a personal favorite). I would not have said the PT 22's prop was eight feet long (but that can be deceptive when actually on an aircraft). It's even Sensenich Bros.! Looks you may have nailed it Rob. How did you know so quickly? (Or do you think its from another machine?)

benguttery · 6 April 2012, 07:33 PM

Your propeller is from a Stearman biplane -- the WW2 era primary trainer. It was either a PT-13 or PT-17 or the Navy Version N2S-3.

The B5255 is a Sensenich serial number and indicates it was made between October 1943 and December 1943 ( reference see http://woodenpropeller.com/Sensenichdates.pdf)

Stearmans were about the only thing using a 98 inch prop. The Ryan PT-22 had a 90 inch. There were some Wacos that also used this prop, but there just weren't as many of those flying around.

wingandprop · 6 April 2012, 10:48 PM

Thank you very much Ben. I didn't realize any of the Stearmans used a wooden prop like this: I thought they were all variable pitch metal props. In looking at some of the Stearman images on Google, however, some of them clearly have full wooden props like this. I didn't see any that were to the quality of the PT 22 pictures I attached earlier, but a couple do look very much like my prop. My father and uncle would both be chagrined: as many hours as they had in Stearmans, you would think they would have recognized the prop off one (but my bet is they were flying the metal prop versions).

Thanks again Ben.