Grosz and Weyl

[oneirodyne]

I would like to find a copy of the 1990 OTF article by Peter Grosz concerning the bias of the Weyl book on Fokker. I am researching the subject of Fokker's wings, and particularly those of the V.1 and D.VIII. Any other suggestions about source material would be gratefully welcomed.

[Breguet]

You've actually touched on a very controversial article. For more on the whole debate a MUST READ would be the 2010 article in Cross and Cockade International Vol 41/1 "The Fokker Cantilever Wing" by Mike Tate.

[Tork1945]

Sure very controversial even emotional. When I once uttered an opinion that Reinhold Platz did something good (and Mr. Fokker was not that great as he himself thought he was) I was personally attacked (luckily with words ....).

You can broaden your view of Mr. Weyl when you get a copy of the following study

Sollinger, Günther. 2009. Villehad Forssman: constructing German bombers 1914-1918. Moscow: Rusavia Publishing House.

In this study Sollinger gives information about the acquisition of the personal archive of Mr. Weyl after his suicide in 1959 by Mr. Grosz. There was a clause in the acquisition that the Weyl archive should remain separate from the Grosz archive. But ... it did not happen, everything was worked into one archive. Mr. Sollinger consulted the Grosz archive now in Berlin (Deutsches Technik Museum) and noted that about three quarter of the archive came from the Weyl archive.

It seems that after the death of Weyl, Mr. Grosz developed a personal vendetta against Mr. Weyl and his writings (especially about Reinhold Platz). Special is that Mr. Grosz had the same (paper) sources as Mr. Weyl had.

About the emotions going high you can view as an example the following thread on the Forum Aerodrome (which was edited by the moderator now and then)

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/bo...tml#post442865

Tork1945

[Breguet]

Whatever the story about Weyl's biases or otherwise the article I quoted certainly backs up Tork's statement about Platz 'doing something good'.

[Germanophile-1]

Originally Posted by oneirodyne

I would like to find a copy of the 1990 OTF article by Peter Grosz concerning the bias of the Weyl book on Fokker. I am researching the subject of Fokker's wings, and particularly those of the V.1 and D.VIII. Any other suggestions about source material would be gratefully welcomed.

You're in luck. Volume 5 of Over the Front is still available and at a decent cost (vs. on-line auction sites). For further information, click on:
World War I Aviation Magazine - Over the Front

Stock up while you can!

Peter

[oneirodyne]

Thank you all for your help and suggestions. I will obtain the Sollinger book. There is a precis of it online that includes the information that Forssman in 1916 sent plywood-skinned cantilever wingsets to Schwerin in hopes of becoming a supplier to Fokker. Weyl does not mention this event, which, if it is a fact, might have something to do with the bolt-from-the-blue quality of the V.1, coming just a few weeks after Kreutzer's death. The V.1 looks to me like a departure from previous (and in many respects subsequent) Fokker designs, as if it had arrived from an outside source. The circular fuselage, thick wings, all-flying wingtip roll controls, sesquiplane arrangement, and the DC-6-like shape of the rudder are all un-Fokker-like. Am I wrong about this? I am not an historian, just a journalist, and am pretty much a newcomer to WW1, but I have some experience in aircraft design which I hope will help me to sort out the plausible from the implausible. It seems to me implausible on its face that Platz brought the V.1 into being in five weeks after Kreutzer's death; that is, I believe, Weyl's version.

Weyl reminds me a bit of the Shakespeare-was-somebody-else crowd. Determined to discredit Fokker, he is obliged to elevate Platz to the level of a unique intuitive genius who was at the same time so incurious as to have no idea of what was going on in the aeronautical world outside of his office. It doesn't seem especially plausible. Why shouldn't Fokker have been the unique intuitive genius (and at the same time, perhaps, a mendacious egoist)?

I realize this ground has been well trodden and by revisiting it I am likely to just irritate a lot of people. But although my general topic is Fokker's wings, my main preoccupation at the moment is the genealogy of the ideas embodied in the V.1. I cannot be the first to find it a startling design. I would be grateful for any insights into possible sources of the ideas it contains.

Peter Garrison

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by oneirodyne

I would like to find a copy of the 1990 OTF article by Peter Grosz concerning the bias of the Weyl book on Fokker. I am researching the subject of Fokker's wings, and particularly those of the V.1 and D.VIII. Any other suggestions about source material would be gratefully welcomed.

Mate,
Welcome to the flagship of the Aerodrome - where the greatest minds on the planet get together and talk about their favorite subject - WW1.

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

P.S. Werner Voss and Kurt Wolff fan here.

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

Peter,
First I want to thank you for posting your name, often times controversial postings are made, and there is no one "showing their face".

My personal opinion, based on material primarily published from Peter Grosz, and conversations with Peter and other historians, is Fokker was a very clever fellow who was gifted with the ability to utilize others research and make the leap to the next level of technological design. Certainly he surrounded himself with very talented people who very likely did the real groundwork and development, but I believe always under the tutelage of Fokker. A couple of his largest contributions being the cantilever box spar, high effecient airfoil, and the synchronization of the MG. Fokker was always a tinkerer, working on all sorts of inventions, like his no-flat automobile tire and his aircraft mini-gun. He was sued, often successfully, by others such as Junkers and Euler. In the eyes of the courts, they had the concept, but in fact, Fokker applied their inspirations into real, workable, solutions.

As Tork1945 posted, Forssman made those first box spars delivered to Fokker. I don't recall the exact details of those letters Grosz showed me from Forssman, but logic leads one to think Fokker went to Forssman to have these spars made. If Forssman had come up with this design on his own, why solicit Fokker? Likely it was a "team" development where Fokker had come up with a spar design based on his association with Junkers, had Forssman build and help with developing a new wing spar design. Fokker followed up, doing weight load testing at Schwerin and with these data, subsequent formulating and giving feedback to Forssman for the manufacture of the next upgraded design.

As far as smearing Platz, I'm sure he was an expert welder and understood the results of weight load stress testing and how to remedy weakness in structures, as well as work on trouble shooting design ideas. Grosz has proven Platz was not listed as an engineer or designer with the factory. So one can only speculate he was a clever guy as he had been with Fokker for a very long time and Fokker isn't going to keep inadequate people around, that was one of his strengths...good employees.

Speaking of the V.1, it certainly it is a fantastic aircraft. After Fokker received his "brain boost" by teaming up with Junkers along with all of his other R&D that went into the V.1 including the rotating wingtips, (good concept, but in practice they fluttered in dives at high speed). Fokker rants and curses the Armee for dismissing his V.1, but most assuradly it was slow, heavy, underpowered, and extremely touchy on the controls with its full flying surfaces without balances and very short length. I'm sure Fokker liked it, but it would have likely killed a novice pilot. The main thing is the technological advances put into the V.1 found their way into the subsequent designs, and it proved to be a very good basis design.

Best,
Dave W.

P.S. I'll leave out the controversy involving Peter, the Weyl collection, and possibly their biased views.

[Breguet]

As far as smearing Platz, I'm sure he was an expert welder and understood the results of weight load stress testing and how to remedy weakness in structures, as well as work on trouble shooting design ideas. Grosz has proven Platz was not listed as an engineer or designer with the factory. So one can only speculate he was a clever guy as he had been with Fokker for a very long time and Fokker isn't going to keep inadequate people around, that was one of his strengths...good employees.

Sounds a bit condescending to me (but that is probably due to the inadequacies of this type of communication). As for 'Grosz has proven....' , I hesitate to say it, but your own opinion may be somewhat jaundiced by you're relationship with Grosz. Now, I'm not down playing his tremendous contribution to our field but his work too was not without its flaws and he too had his 'blind spots'. Back to Platz.

Platz was certainly a lot more than a clever welder and one can do a lot more than speculate on his cleverness. The excellent article by Eberhard Schmidt (CCI Vol 40 #4) shows the variety of inventions he developed, advanced gliders, his later work with Heinkel, boat design, hose rollers that doubled as lawn rollers, adjustable beds, the first in-line roller skates.....all in all he appears to me to be a much underated victim of the Weyl/Gross controversy. Just because Weyl may or may not have had an axe to grind with Fokker doesn't mean we have to follow on with he must have over-emphasised Platz's work.

Also don't forget the pioneering work of Bruening & Sohn AG (high quality plywood and stressed skins) and Jeannin Flugzeugbau & NFW (steel tube fuselages).

Once again if you want to look a Cantilever wing evolution Tate's article is the one you simply must look at (that Vol of CCI is available from their website).

[Tork1945]

To answer the remarks of Mr. Watts.

As Tork1945 posted, Forssman made those first box spars delivered to Fokker. I don't recall the exact details of those letters Grosz showed me from Forssman, but logic leads one to think Fokker went to Forssman to have these spars made. If Forssman had come up with this design on his own, why solicit Fokker? Likely it was a "team" development where Fokker had come up with a spar design based on his association with Junkers, had Forssman build and help with developing a new wing spar design. Fokker followed up, doing weight load testing at Schwerin and with these data, subsequent formulating and giving feedback to Forssman for the manufacture of the next upgraded design.

Please consult the study of Günther Sollinger I mentioned. Sollinger invested quite a lot of pages on this episode and he can tell it far better than me. You will see that it is based on the correspondence (letters) between Forssman and Fokker which were in the archive of Mr. Weyl, later taken over by Mr. Grosz. Full references are given in the study (footnotes).

As far as smearing Platz, I'm sure he was an expert welder and understood the results of weight load stress testing and how to remedy weakness in structures, as well as work on trouble shooting design ideas. Grosz has proven Platz was not listed as an engineer or designer with the factory. So one can only speculate he was a clever guy as he had been with Fokker for a very long time and Fokker isn't going to keep inadequate people around, that was one of his strengths...good employees.

As already answered by Mr. Breguet, Mr. Reinhold Platz was much more than an expert welder, although he came in the Fokker factory at Schwerin for his welding expertise in about 1912, I think.

Fact is that Mr. Reinhold Platz often figures in footage shot during and after the war by Fokker and others. These pieces (several thousand) are now in the archives of the Hilversum Institute Beeld en Geluid. Mr. Platz is seen in several scenes which makes it sensible that he was one of the intimates of Fokker.

Mr. Platz was also selected to manage the Fokker subsidiary in Veere, where he was responsible for the whole plant during its existence from 1922 till 1926.

To say it mildly Mr. Platz was more than an expert welder as brought up by Mr. Grosz.

Tork1945