Breguet's Aircraft ID Challenge #965

[Rod_Filan]

Attached below for your consideration ... and good luck.


Scoreboard after Challenge #964 - the Italian Dirigible M.2 "Città di Ferrara".

153.40 Varese2002 ¤¤¤
131.20 Dave_Kent ¤¤
120.20 Rbailey ¤¤
55.00 richard B ¤
39.00 Aquilius ¤
33.55 Lodzermensch ¤
33.30 Cruze ¤
25.40 YavorD
22.55 Froggy
16.90 Flamingo
15.80 Rod Filan
13.00 Breguet
11.50 Tork1945
10.50 matte_kudasai
10.45 GregE
10.30 Patrick
09.70 Dan-San
09.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
09.20 Rufe
08.40 JohnMacG
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.10 Colin A. Owers
07.25 Ermeio
06.90 Doc
06.70 Ampovandak
06.70 Berman
06.30 HoHun
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
06.00 Sobrien
05.70 AROTH
05.70 dpolglaze
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Gilles
05.20 Maze
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 AL FORBES
05.00 Kristjanr
05.00 Old Man
05.00 SCMc
05.00 Tom L......................... At and above this line, have to wait 12 hours

04.50 '14-'18aviationcollector.... At and below this line, may start immediately
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.00 greenknight
04.00 John McKenzie
04.00 Luf-Rick
03.90 Brad
03.80 RobW
03.00 Catfish
03.00 Linhawk
02.50 Gregoire
02.50 Rexee
02.30 ckingh5
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 albatros1234
02.00 austin08
02.00 Lupodimontenero
02.00 Misa2
02.00 Rickenbaron
01.70 Kilian
01.60 airplane176
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.50 Albatros_Ace
01.30 Cigogne
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Mike Westrop
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 SL DIII
01.00 Tripehound
00.90 Stig Jarlevik
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 Mad Mac
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 Douglas7
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Johnnick
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd30
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14

Previous: Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's Aircraft Challenge* --

The rules:
1. The thread title must be "Breguet's Aircraft ID Challenge #......"
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.
4. The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference).
5. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified (always check the list at Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's -Aircraft Challenge* -- when in doubt !) and the poster re-post within the same thread, the 12hours handicap beginning from that point.
6. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted.
7. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
8. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
9. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
10. If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
11. The final arbiter in relation to questions about the rules is BREGUET

[Breguet]

Very tidy aircraft.

[Rbailey]

Zeppelin Lindau (Dornier) CL.I; single bay with outward raked struts; nose shape.

[Tork1945]

The Zeppelin CL.I (sometimes named Zeppelin-Lindau CL.I) designed by Claude Dornier, which appeared at the end of the war. Only about nine examples were finished before end of production due to the Armistice. Serials were C.1820/18 onwards.

Characteristic single bay wing construction and almost built in 6-cylinder water cooled Daimler D.IIIa (radiator 'somewhere' inside). Metal construction of the fuselage (in German : Glattblech-Schalenrumpf).

The machine is referenced in several books (Putnam, Thetford / Gray, Lange etc.) and on the internet like

Zeppelin-Lindau CL.I


Tork1945

[airplane176]

Tork1945,

I have C.1820/18 in a batch of Junkers CL.I. My source was The Hugo Junkers Homepage. I am still collecting serials: German Military Aircraft Database. Thank you.

Roger

[Rod_Filan]

It's Rbailey at the bell--timed perfectly. Point and #966 to him. In addition to the information given by Tork (thank you); a 3/4 view of what looks to be the same machine and a photo of the CL.II here.
Cheers.

The scoreboard at the end of Challenge #965 - the Zeppelin-Lindau (Dornier) CL.I ...

153.40 Varese2002 ¤¤¤
131.20 Dave_Kent ¤¤
121.20 Rbailey ¤¤
55.00 richard B ¤
39.00 Aquilius ¤
33.55 Lodzermensch ¤
33.30 Cruze ¤
25.40 YavorD
22.55 Froggy
16.90 Flamingo
15.80 Rod Filan
13.00 Breguet
11.50 Tork1945
10.50 matte_kudasai
10.45 GregE
10.30 Patrick
09.70 Dan-San
09.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
09.20 Rufe
08.40 JohnMacG
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.10 Colin A. Owers
07.25 Ermeio
06.90 Doc
06.70 Ampovandak
06.70 Berman
06.30 HoHun
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
06.00 Sobrien
05.70 AROTH
05.70 dpolglaze
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Gilles
05.20 Maze
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 AL FORBES
05.00 Kristjanr
05.00 Old Man
05.00 SCMc
05.00 Tom L......................... At and above this line, have to wait 12 hours

04.50 '14-'18aviationcollector.... At and below this line, may start immediately
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.00 greenknight
04.00 John McKenzie
04.00 Luf-Rick
03.90 Brad
03.80 RobW
03.00 Catfish
03.00 Linhawk
02.50 Gregoire
02.50 Rexee
02.30 ckingh5
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 albatros1234
02.00 austin08
02.00 Lupodimontenero
02.00 Misa2
02.00 Rickenbaron
01.70 Kilian
01.60 airplane176
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.50 Albatros_Ace
01.30 Cigogne
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Mike Westrop
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 SL DIII
01.00 Tripehound
00.90 Stig Jarlevik
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 Mad Mac
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 Douglas7
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Johnnick
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd30
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14

[Breguet]

Originally Posted by airplane176

Tork1945,

I have C.1820/18 in a batch of Junkers CL.I. My source was The Hugo Junkers Homepage. I am still collecting serials: German Military Aircraft Database. Thank you.

Roger

Anyone got any clarification on this?

[YavorD]

I have the following serials (collected from various secondary sources).

• Junk. Cl.I 1800:1809/18, (10) first batch from Junkers-Fokker Werke A.G. (Jfa);
• Junk. Cl.I 1850:1869/18, (20) Jco or Jfa (No pictures! No confirmation);
• Junk. Cl.I 12600:12619/18, (20) Junkers-Fokker Werke A.G. (Jfa);
• Junk. Cl.I 12920:12929/18, (10) Junkers-Fokker Werke A.G. (Jfa);
• Junk. Cl.I 15672/18 (photos, Windsock Datafile 131) ...

There is a batch of Zepp. Cl.I [Zeppelin Werke Lindau G.m.b.H.] starting from 1820/18 ... Not clear how many actually delivered.

Regards,
Yavor

[YavorD]

Originally Posted by Tork1945

... (radiator 'somewhere' inside) ...

There is a wing-mounted radiator offset to starboard (right-hand-side).
Regards,
Yavor

[Tork1945]

Originally Posted by YavorD

I have the following serials (collected from various secondary sources).

• Junk. Cl.I 1800:1809/18, (10) first batch from Junkers-Fokker Werke A.G. (Jfa);
• Junk. Cl.I 1850:1869/18, (20) Jco or Jfa (No pictures! No confirmation);
• Junk. Cl.I 12600:12619/18, (20) Junkers-Fokker Werke A.G. (Jfa);
• Junk. Cl.I 12920:12929/18, (10) Junkers-Fokker Werke A.G. (Jfa);
• Junk. Cl.I 15672/18 (photos, Windsock Datafile 131) ...

There is a batch of Zepp. Cl.I [Zeppelin Werke Lindau G.m.b.H.] starting from 1820/18 ... Not clear how many actually delivered.

Regards,
Yavor

My reference to the Zeppelin CL.I was from two issues of Cross & Cockade Journal (the USA one).

• Pardee, Douglas T. Expatriate and Ex-officio aircraft of the Central Powers. In: Cross & Cockade Journal Volume 21 (1980) No.2 (Summer) pp. 97-130.

Page 130 gives some information on the Zeppelin Werke and several types as appropriate in the context of the article.

The Zeppelin part of the article was the subject of comments in the Wind Soc part of the magazine (letters of readers).

• Terry, Gerard. Comments on the Zeppelin situation. In: Cross & Cockade Journal Volume 22 (1981) No.3 (Autums) p. 283

The comments are as follows

The article has the Zeppelin situation thoroughly confused. The correct situation is: The aircraft built at Staaken were Dornier CL.I's, not the Jaray design. The serials were C.1820/18 onwards. Only about nine were completed. The Jaray aircraft were Zeppelin C.II's built by Luftschiffbau Zeppelin Flugzeugbau at Friedrichshafen. The serials were C.15800/17 to C.15805/17 and C.5500/18 to C.5519/18. Aircraft C.15804/17 did not go to Switzerland, as a photo of it still in wartime German markings was taken when it was with the German Aviation Collection long after World War I. The Musée de l'Air aircraft is the Zeppelin C.IV, not a Dornier CL.I. I have photographic evidence.

No sources or evidence is given in both Pardee and the piece of Terry, so there is no way to look at the truth.

Jaray is Oberingenieur Paul Jaray, also known for his special four-bladed propeller construction.

Perhaps there are some - preferably German - experts who can look at remaining archival sources to verify what was the truth with those biplane Zeppelins ?

Tork1945