roden albatros D.III OAW question

[the kid]

been starin at these forums for quite some time, seemed only right to just join up.. any hooter i was wondering if someone would be kind enough to share with me the location of the rocker arms and rocker boxes on the alby d.iii oaw. i have rodens 1/32 "candy stripe" boxing and have seen so many different answers throughout the internet as to which type of mercedes this bird used.. instruction booklet says it is a 160 hp d.iiia... but ive also read elsewhere from those more knowledgable than i that it used the later 175-180 hp engine with rocker boxes set back just behind each set of springs/arms.. Anyone able (or willing) to elaborate? that would be much appreciated..

[Kaiser Bill]

Kid...welcome to the Aerodrome. I can't help with your question, but I'm sure one of our resident experts will be along and have exactly what you are looking for. Good to have you here.

regards,

Kaiser Bill

[StephenLawson]

Originally Posted by the kid

been starin at these forums for quite some time, seemed only right to just join up.. any hooter i was wondering if someone would be kind enough to share with me the location of the rocker arms and rocker boxes on the alby d.iii oaw. i have rodens 1/32 "candy stripe" boxing and have seen so many different answers throughout the internet as to which type of mercedes this bird used.. instruction booklet says it is a 160 hp d.iiia... but ive also read elsewhere from those more knowledgable than i that it used the later 175-180 hp engine with rocker boxes set back just behind each set of springs/arms.. Anyone able (or willing) to elaborate? that would be much appreciated..

First, welcome to the "Drome".

Next, the late 170hp and all 180hp Mercs had the rockerboxes place aft of the valve springs. The Alb. D.III (OAW) came out in fall 1918 and so did the Meredes D.IIIaü 180hp. Manfred von Richthofen flew one with a 170hp after he came back from his head wound. He was unimpressed with the performance. The 170hp - 175hp Merc was what he had flown in early 1917. As the 180hp Merc became available it became the standard.

Daimler Mercedes D.IIIaü 180hp and were generally known by the company as F-1466a. The upper portions of the original aircraft engine cylinder's are covered by water jackets these are the color of black/blued gun metal.

The immediate visual difference in the early Mercedes D.III 160hp / early to mid production D.IIIa 170hp (F-1466 )and its progeny the D.IIIaü 180hp (F-1466a) are in the rocker boxes above the cylinder jacket heads.

On the early Mercedes D.III and early to mid production D.IIIa motors the rocker springs are centered on the sides of the rocker box covers.

On the D.IIIaü motor the box covers are moved back so the rocker arms and springs are located on the forward leading edge of the same covers.

The rest is below the cowling and not readily visible.

The Mercedes D.III160hp was outclassed by 1917. In 1918 from the factory Mercedes D.IIIaü 180hp was the standard engine in the

1. Pfalz D.IIIa.
2. Albatros (OAW) D.III
3. Albatros Johannistahl late built D.V
4, and all D.Va types starting in late 1917
5. and the Fokker D.VII through 1918.

Many, many Mercedes D. III and IIIa type motors were upgraded and rebuilt to the D.IIIaü specs at the airparks as the war progressed. That is why some captured examples had motors with the i.d. designation of D.III 160hp cast into their crankcases. This has caused the misconception that the standard 160hp and 170 hp were used in 1918 at a time when they had become obsolete. Often these were referred to as “160hp over-compressed engines.”

[dirtyshirt]

Good evening,

"Mercedes D.IIIaü 180hp was the standard engine"

Stephen, how do you define "standard engine" ?.
Is it the motor originally installed in the airframe at the aircraft factory or is it replacement motors subsequently fitted in large numbers as the original motors wore out.

With regards,
Mike

[StephenLawson]

As an inline six it was the goal that Daimler aimed for in production to meet perameters of their government contracts in 1918. These new completed engines went to the factories of the large contract holders first.

There were also large consignments of "used or damaged" motors that went back to the factory from the front by military train for "repair & reconditioning.

Military issue & repair parks in the field were held accountable to meet the standard by order - as parts were available. I (Dave Watts and Dan san Abbott ) believe that stocks and stores of parts were so scarce late in the war that 1 out of every 10 Fokker D.VII airframes shipped to the front from the factories went with out a motor.

When they got to the front these motor-less birds had to get a repaired or rebuilt motor at the flugpark.

[dirtyshirt]

Good evening,

Thank you, Stephen, for your reply. I have to disagree with your statement....

"In 1918 from the factory Mercedes D.IIIaü 180hp was the standard engine in the

1. Pfalz D.IIIa.
2. Albatros (OAW) D.III
3. Albatros Johannistahl late built D.V
4, and all D.Va types starting in late 1917" .....however.

In my opinion, the Mercedes D.IIIau was rarely, if ever, (never) fitted to the above aircraft, nor to the early production Roland D.VIa, as the standard production motor. These aircraft were equipped with the Mercedes D.IIIa motor in all its many guises.
The reason these aircraft could not have been fitted with the D.IIIau as standard is that their production was complete by April 1918, by which time the Mercedes D.IIIau motor was just beginning to come off the Daimler production line. That is not to say that any of the said aircraft were not subsequently refitted with overhauled D.IIIa motors beefed up to D.IIIau standard.
The fallacy that aircraft such as the Albatros D.Va were delivered from the factory equipped with the Mercedes D.IIIau is presumeably because of misidentification over the years using the fat "coke can" airpump as an identification feature for the D.IIIau.
This airpump type, the predominant type evident in photographs of late war Albatros D.Va and Pfalz D.IIIa types, had been phased-out late in the Mercedes D.IIIa production run to be replaced by the dual horizontal type.
I would suggest that when the D.IIIa motors were being overhauled with new domed pistons and the altitude compensated carburettor to a D.IIIau standard, replacement of the fat upright airpump was not a priority and as such continued to be reused to the end of hostilities as witnessed by some photographs of late-war Fokker D.VII's.

With regards,
Mike.

[StephenLawson]

The information we have from the Daimler factory says otherwise. The Mercedes D.IIIaü 180hp was first introduced in the fall of 1917. Air pumps were interchangable and have little to do with the motor characteristics. For instance the Alb. D.Va used the Mercedes D.IIIaü 180hp and it first arrived at the front in Nov. 1917. Dave Watts has the engine production specs from the Daimler archives. He has shared some of his insights concerning these lists in the aircraft forum over the years. He is also the only person in the United States that has a rating from Daimler to repair the F-1466 & F1466a.

[the kid]

thanks for the welcome fellas...
stephen, so the OAW built alby d.IIIs werent around until 1918? the few marking options my roden kit provides all state that they were from summer of 1917 and one autumn 1917. or did you mean oaw machines fitted with the d.iiiau 180 werent until 1918? sorry if i'm screwin this all up, i just wanna make sure my engines' most visible parts are correct (which also happens to be the focal point of the model in my opinion). the kit provided blobs for rocker springs/arms doesnt cut it for me and i want to make sure i place them correctly once i wind some up out of wire.
thanks again for all the help

[StephenLawson]

Originally Posted by StephenLawson

The information we have from the Daimler factory says otherwise. The Mercedes D.IIIaü 180hp was first introduced in the fall of 1917. Air pumps were interchangable and have little to do with the motor characteristics. For instance the Alb. D.Va used the Mercedes D.IIIaü 180hp and it first arrived at the front in Nov. 1917. Dave Watts has the engine production specs from the Daimler archives. He has shared some of his insights concerning these lists in the aircraft forum over the years. He is also the only person in the United States that has a rating from Daimler to repair the F-1466 & F1466a.

The Alb. D.III (OAW) came out in the fall of 1917. As I mentioned there were probably a few that had the late 170hp (from the factory) but as the 180hp became available these became the standard installations. (From the factory). We know that the Alb. D.Va came into service with the 180hp in Nov. 1917.

Here is an over view from a kit review I did on the Roden 1:32 Alb. D.III (OAW) kit.

". . .Having only just appeared in any quantity at the Front, the Albatros D.III soon had to give way to its successor from Albatros the new Albatros D.V. At the same time, the previous order for the Albatros D.III had still not been completed, and aircraft were required at the Front in impossibly large quantities. It was decided to pass on the manufacture of the Albatros D.III to the firm's OAW branch in Schneidemühl, thus the main factory in Johannisthal would concentrate on the release of the D.V. In April of 1917 the OAW factory received an initial order for 200 fighters, and eventually over 800 were to be required by the end of that year. The situation became even more pressured, when early build Albatros D.V machines, soon after delivery to the front, were returned to the factory for the elimination of design faults. The Albatros D.III was the reliable 'workhorse' of the German Army, and its production was constantly increased. In June of 1917 the first licensed machines passed their tests. (Even at that they were a month to 5 weeks from arriving at the front due to train routing and arrival at the air depots.)

There was a number of concerns about the machine, however they were insignificant. The final verdict was more than positive: the plane could be passed directly to the Front. German experts, and such as the famous Manfred von Richthofen, declared that in comparison with the Albatros D.V its predecessor was better in many technical respects; and constant problems with wing construction in the D.V constantly sidelined it during the most important moments of the military campaigns of 1917.

Visually, the Alb. D.III machines produced by the two different factories (Albatros and OAW) differed physically only in the shape of the rudder the Albatros machines had straighter lines, as their predecessors had, while the rudder of the OAW machines had a more rounded outline. The fuselage cross was further forward. Another slight difference was in the form of the hood near the armament's recharge mechanism. Some of the machines had their wing radiator shifted from the centerline even further. An additional wing radiator was fitted to fighters sent to the Front in Mesopotamia and Palestine.

As a whole, the OAW firm built 838 Albatros D.III's, in comparison with 500 built by Albatros itself. They took part in combat on the Western Front until the final days of WWI. Some of the machines were used in experiments the rocket pioneer Rudolf Nebel experimented with rocket launchers, for the intended interception of British bombers; and there were plans for the use of the D.III as a parasite fighter under huge Zeppelins. The Albatros D.III (OAW) was at war on every front, from France to the Near East, and it figures large in the history of aviation as one of the most successful early fighting aircraft." (from the Roden website)

The Albatros company's practice of wing camouflage involved an alternation in most cases of every 50 or so machines between the painted two toned shading and the 5 colour Lozenge printed camouflage. This is the break down, generally speaking for the Albatros D.III (OAW) as noted by Mr. Dan-San Abbott.

D.1650 - 1849/17, two colour painted.
D.2362 - 2424/17, five colour printed.
D.2425 - 2599/17, two colour painted.
D.2600 - 2661/17, five colour printed.
D.3156 - 3199/17, two colour painted.
D.3200 - 3255/17, five colour printed.
D.5022 - 5071/17, two colour painted.
D.5072 - 5161/17, five colour printed. . ."


Click Here for full kit review

[Bill McGill]

Originally Posted by StephenLawson

The information we have from the Daimler factory says otherwise. The Mercedes D.IIIaü 180hp was first introduced in the fall of 1917. Air pumps were interchangable and have little to do with the motor characteristics. For instance the Alb. D.Va used the Mercedes D.IIIaü 180hp and it first arrived at the front in Nov. 1917. Dave Watts has the engine production specs from the Daimler archives. He has shared some of his insights concerning these lists in the aircraft forum over the years. He is also the only person in the United States that has a rating from Daimler to repair the F-1466 & F1466a.

Stephen, your 'fall of 1917' statement looks like it is at odds with Dave Watts's own posting here on the aerodrome on 23 July 2010 where he lists D.IIIa and D.IIIaü production for 1918...

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/ai...ii-series.html

"Daimler monthly production of the Mercedes D.IIIa/D.IIIaü for 1918.

January 428 (D.IIIa)
February 328 (D.IIIa)
March 283 (D.IIIa)
April 370 (min.200-D.IIIa/max.170-D.IIIaü)
May 405 (min.110-D.IIIa/max.295-D.IIIaü)
June 413 (min.22-D.IIIa/max.391-D.IIIaü)
July 498 (1-D.IIIa/497-D.IIIaü)
August 495 (D.IIIaü)
September 480 (D.IIIaü)
October 229 (D.IIIaü)
November 100 (D.IIIaü)
December 15 (D.IIIaü)

Total 4044 for 1918, = 1359 D.IIIa motors + 2685 D.IIIaü motors."

Which would indicate that no D.IIIaü engines were produced until April 1918. Are you perhaps confusing the 180hp D.IIIa with the D.IIIaü?

Is there somewhere that we can see Daimler/Mercedes engine production figures for 1914,15,16 and 17 as well?

Bill