Almost like wood !

[JohnReid]

So what is the big deal about not using real wood ?Why go so far out of your way to avoid using a material that you are trying to represent ? The kit guys ,well I guess they have always used plastic and are familiar with it but.....
The scratchbuilders I don't really understand.These guys already tend to be more adventurous by nature but not when it comes to wood .I am not talking just texture and natural wood grain here but the actual material used for shaping something out of a block.Why go to all the trouble of using plastics when wood may be a better choice ?
I have used wood to shape things paper thin, like a birds feather, using Tupelo wood.Little grain,nice texture,no fuzz,it can be shaped with or across the grain equally well.It can be sealed and even soaked in super-thin crazy glue to be rock hard and last almost forever.And it is definitely not "almost like wood".

[oxyflt]

John,
Where did you but this Tupelo wood?

[oxyflt]

Sorry John,
That would be, where did you buy the wood?
Thanks

[JohnReid]

Hi ! Welcome to the Drome. The best bet for obtaining Tupelo wood is any woodstore that supplies wood to decorative bird carvers or decoy makers.You could also give Basswood (not balsa)a go too. For both types ,tupelo and bass ,try to find a piece that is light in weight and color with no visible or little grain.Try to hand select your own piece of wood if you have a dealer near by or contact a local woodcarving club for help.They might have scraps that you could use.
Good luck and get back to me if you are having a real problem.Cheers! John.

[Old Man]

Originally Posted by JohnReid

So what is the big deal about not using real wood ?Why go so far out of your way to avoid using a material that you are trying to represent ? The kit guys well I guess they have always used plastic and are familiar with it but.....
The scratchbuilders I don't really understand.These guys already tend to be more adventurous by nature but not when it comes to wood ,either alone or mixed media.I am not talking just texture and natural wood grain here but the actual material used for shaping something out of a block.Why go to all the trouble of using plastics when wood may be a better choice ?
I have used wood to shape things paper thin, like a birds feather, using Tupelo wood.Little grain,nice texture,no fuzz,it can be shaped with or across the grain equally well.It can be sealed and even soaked in super-thin crazy glue to be rock hard and last almost forever.And it is definitely not "almost like wood".

The major reason, Sir, I shy off of using wood for basic shaping is that I do not know the ins and outs of carving it. I did, back years ago, make use of balsa and such, but was no good with it and cut myself badly once. Working as a jeweler as a young man gave me a familiarity with small things and softer metals, and plastic works like metal form the point of view of cutting and filing by hand.

That said, I have considered wood for two purposes. My local hobby shop sells some very small section strips of bass-wood, used as 'lumber' in model railroad lay-outs, which I think has some potential as strut material. I have some surpassingly thin wood sheet (cedar, I think) that was wrapped around cigars, that I think has real promise for representing ply-wood decking around cockpits and such on unpainted machines.

I certainly sympathize with your point of view. When it comes to metal, I am definitely of the 'nothing really looks like metal but metal' school, and so use foil, unless it is simply not possible to apply it properly, for bare metal surfaces, and can see a similar argument being made for wood, certainly in the larger scales.

[JohnReid]

Sorry bout that old man but it looks like I shot off my mouth without first checking in with the old brain.I didn't mean specifically yourself but I can now see why you may have thought the statement was directed at you.What I assumed and shouldn't have ,was that you were using power tools to shape the plastic and not hand tools.
Tupelo is absolutely the wrong kind of wood to carve by hand,I use only power when carving it.Basswood can be carved quite thin but not as thin as tupelo.The really great thing about tupelo is that you can carve it with power tools with or across the grain without the wood losing strength. In other words, you could carve a hollowed out ball shape piece of wood as thin as paper,even the end grain,which is pretty amazing.Basswood is not so forgiving.
I think that balsa wood is probably most responsible for giving wood in general a bad name amongst modelers.Some modelers, I think ,tried to carve and shape it with hand tools with very poor results and then spread the word to stay away from wood when modeling for static display.
The painting abilities of some modelers is getting very close to the real thing these days and I really do admire their work but real wood should also have its place in the hobby too, especially among scratchbuilders ,some of whom even use plastic sheet to represent wood on flat panels.

[Old Man]

Originally Posted by JohnReid

Sorry bout that old man but it looks like I shot off my mouth without first checking in with the old brain.I didn't mean specifically yourself but I can now see why you may have thought the statement was directed at you.What I assumed and shouldn't have ,was that you were using power tools to shape the plastic and not hand tools.
Tupelo is absolutely the wrong kind of wood to carve by hand,I use only power when using it.Bass wood can be carved quite thin but not as thin as tupelo.The really great thin about tupelo is that you can carve it with power tools with or across the grain without the wood losing strength. In other words you could carve a hollowed out ball shape piece of wood as thin as paper,even the end grain,which is pretty amazing.Basswood is not so forgiving.
I think that balsa wood is probably most responsible for giving wood in general a bad name amongst modelers.Some modelers, I think ,tried to carve and shape it with hand tools with very poor results and then spread the word to stay away from wood when modeling for static display.
The painting abilities of some modelers is getting very close to the real thing these days and I really do admire their work but real wood should also have its place in the hobby too, especially among scratchbuilders ,who even use plastic sheet to represent wood on flat panels.

I did not think it aimed at me, Sir, but only a general invitation to discussing a topic. I do go out of my way to avoid wood-shaping: if you look up advice on how to scratch-build, you will find the fuselage advice invariably comes to 'carve a wooden master and smash-mould or vacu-form', which I suspect drives a number of people off of scratch-building, who share my inexperience and unfamiliarity with working the material. I will use a Dremel on occasion, for hollowing out inside curves, simply because life is short (at least by now) and the alternative can take many, many hours.

I thought some of what you were driving at was for finishing, since in aeroplanes of our period there is often a lot of varnished wood showing. If someone were building, say, a 1/24 scale Albatros D-type, spectacular results could be got, I expect, by using veneer woods for the fuselage, by someone who knew how to form them to the contours.

One question, Sir, if you do not mind. When you coat or soak wood with liquid CA, what effect does it have on what can be seen of the grain, and the color? Would the wood still take stain, or would that have to be done before the glue was employed?

[albatros1234]

i think most of us use plastic(styrene) mostly because that is what we are used to. i also feel it is more versatile and more forgiving than wood and easier to work with. maybe not in your chosen scale of 1/16. but i build primarily 1/48. i am not a scratchbuilder and there is a great number of injection molded kits to choose from that make a great platform to add homemade details to. besides there is a scale problem using wood to make something in 1/48. the grain is way to big and in most cases would look funny. i also enjoy painting woodgrain finishes and in most cases people are fooled into thinking i made it of wood anyway. also when using wood you have to deal with grain when you dont want it. then you have to seal with mutiple sealer coats and sand with multi grits of sandpaper to get it smooth enough to use in simulating anything else but wood.its easier to make plastic look like wood than it is to make wood look like anything else but wood. glueing is much easier, when i built my few guillows kits i was annoyed with glueing the wood together and found myself spending more time holding a rib to a spar than i spent doing anything. with plastic i put a little cement on hold it for a few seconds and move on. its hard enough to find time to build without spending 3/4 of the time alotted holding 2 pieces of wood together.then just when you think it will hold you set it down and it falls apart again,or worse you think you are good then leave for an hour only to come back and realise it shifted and you have to do it again. so i will be using plastic, it works for me.

[JohnReid]

There is no right or wrong way of doing things I guess, it is all what your used to,where you feel comfortable.Personally I just don't feel comfortable feeling comfortable all the time.
Time wise it probably is about the same in the end .Painting detail and waiting for it to dry is also very time consuming.
Those Guillows kits give building in wood a bad name,especially if they are made for static display where there is no excuse for using balsa.They are probably responsible for turning off more potential wood builders than anything else.
Scale really doesn't matter as much as using the right and the best materials including glues.Scale is all in the tools you use,small scale small tools.Just take a look at what the ship modelers do.A head worn type magnifier really helps a lot too.
The variety of glues out there today is endless and they will glue wood together instantly if that is your requirement.
Hand selection of the right type of wood in any scale is very important.Grain,texture,color ,workability all have to be considered.
I agree that most people are easily fooled except I can't easily fool myself . I bet that a lot of those who were initially fooled would not be so easily again if the finished wood and painted piece were put together side by side.
A very good example of this is in the classic or luxury car market.The wood trim there is breathtaking.The best only deserves the best in my opinion.

[JohnReid]

Please old man call me John,Sir is not something that I am used to,just ask my wife. although" Sir John "does have a nice ring to it.

As far as using super thin CA is concerned the color change would be about the same as a clear sealer.(by the way clear lacquer changes a woods natural color the least).It has no effect on the grain as it is clear and actually sinks right into the wood and does not just lay of top of it.The wood is permanently sealed and cannot be stained except as a top coat.I haven't personally tried to use CA over wood stain but I see no reason why you couldn't if you were to use a water based stain that has no sealer in it and then let it dry thoroughly before using the CA. Great question !