MVR, Ace of Aces?

[Stephan]

Who shot down the most Aces in either world war? Galland had 4 or 5, Marseilles at least 3. MVR 8? who else is in the running?

& while we're at it, did Marseilles get more than 3? Galland more than 5?





Galland;
1.British ace P/O ?Johnny? Allen (7.333 confirmed and 5 unconfirmed destroyed victories)
2.British ace, Sub-Lt Francis Dawson-Paul (7.25 confirmed and 1 unconfirmed destroyed and 1 damaged victories
3.It is thought he again shot down a notable RAF pilot on 15 August, when he brought down the New Zealand ace F/Lt ?Al? Deere (17.333 confirmed and 2.5 unconfirmed destroyed, 4 probable and 7.5 damaged victories)
4.Harold Bird-Wilson (5.2 destroyed, 3 probable and 3 damaged victories)
5.Count Manfred Czernin (17 destroyed, 3.5 probable and 3.833 damaged victories

link

Marseilles;
shot down six aircraft of No. 5 Squadron SAAF, five of them in six minutes, including three aces: Robin Pare (six victories), Douglas Golding (6.5 victories) and Andre Botha (five victories).

link


MVR;
#11 Lanoe Hawker
#13 Arthur Knight
#15 James McCudden*
#54 Robert Farquhar
#55 Norman McNaughton
#71 Thomas Sharpe
#76 Sydney Smith
#79 Richard Raymond-Barker

[Stephan]

Damn good links eh?

[crankcase]

Originally Posted by Stephan

Who shot down the most Aces in either world war? Galland had 4 or 5, Marseilles at least 3. MVR 8? who else is in the running?

& while we're at it, did Marseilles get more than 3? Galland more than 5?





Galland;
1.British ace P/O ?Johnny? Allen (7.333 confirmed and 5 unconfirmed destroyed victories)
2.British ace, Sub-Lt Francis Dawson-Paul (7.25 confirmed and 1 unconfirmed destroyed and 1 damaged victories
3.It is thought he again shot down a notable RAF pilot on 15 August, when he brought down the New Zealand ace F/Lt ?Al? Deere (17.333 confirmed and 2.5 unconfirmed destroyed, 4 probable and 7.5 damaged victories)
4.Harold Bird-Wilson (5.2 destroyed, 3 probable and 3 damaged victories)
5.Count Manfred Czernin (17 destroyed, 3.5 probable and 3.833 damaged victories

link

Marseilles;
shot down six aircraft of No. 5 Squadron SAAF, five of them in six minutes, including three aces: Robin Pare (six victories), Douglas Golding (6.5 victories) and Andre Botha (five victories).

link


MVR;
#11 Lanoe Hawker
#13 Arthur Knight
#15 James McCudden*
#54 Robert Farquhar
#55 Norman McNaughton
#71 Thomas Sharpe
#76 Sydney Smith
#79 Richard Raymond-Barker

What an interesting question!
The implication being that if a pilot shot down four aces (and never became an ace himself) may be considered more skillful than an ace who shot down 5 (or more) obsolete 2-seaters?
Of course, we might have to go a step further and inquire as to the skilfulness of the aces shot down!
marc

[Stephan]

Reinert got at least 1 I have read, Fonck at least 1 with Wisseman.


Reinert continued to score heavily w he became one of the most successful Luftwaffe 'experten' during that period of combat. One of his victims on 16 April was a Spitfire flown by 244 Wing leader and ace Wing Commander Ian Gleed.
Ernst Wilhelm Reinert-Luftwaffe Ace signed color pho (05/06/2009)...

[bristol scout]

WW2.....!!!!!!! Never mind---I did'nt start it!

You give no attention to the TYPE of aeroplane it seems.

That Marseilles flew an ME109 (either an 'E' or later an 'F') against Hurricanes or P.40's seems of no matter.

Earlier in the Battle of Britain German pilots were calling the Hurricane a "tired old puffer". In the desert, with volkes air filters creating extra drag, they were very close to being 'easy meat' for 109's.

LUCKY indeed was Marseilles--lucky to be in a 109, and lucky himself not to have been shot down twice at least, and by a Hurricane at that...

[Graeme]

Well...

Norman McNaughton wasn't an ace - I can find only a single claim by him.

Robert Wallace Farquhar was shot down and killed on 30 October 1918, so can't have been one of MvR's victims. MvR's victim on 7 April 1917 was 2nd Lt George Orme Smart of No 60 Sqn; he possibly had two victories, so wasn't an ace.

McCudden wasn't shot down by MvR since by the description of his "victim" MvR tackled an FE2.

And, of course, Fonck didn't shoot down Wisseman since Wisseman was killed om 28 September 1917 and Fonck made no claim on this date. The circumstances make it look more likely that Wisseman was shot down by Bowman and Hoidge.

Graeme

[Stephan]

McCudden collected 26 bullet holes in his tail then did a fake spin. Yes WW 2 and WW 1!! did we miss that?

P-40 could outturn a 109 below 10.000 feet said Bar. Lucky shooting down 158 planes, hmmm, quite a stretch that is.

[Gregvan]

Hi Stephan,

Leaving WW II out of this...you should try to pick up a copy of Norman Franks' excellent book: Who Downed the Aces in WWI? from Grub Street, 1996. Norman tackles the job of uncovering who shot down various aces throughout the war in a thorough fashion. Russ Gannon could no doubt add a lot to Norman's research and refute or contradict some of it too!

Jon Guttman's ever-expanding range of "Duel" titles for Osprey also covers this topic.

A few comments on your comments:

It's now quite doubtful that Fonck "got" Wissemann (and there are many who doubt that Wissemann 'got' Guynemer!). British historians prefer to give credit to 56 Sqdn's Hoidge or Bowman.

One interesting topic would be Paul Billik of Jasta 7, 12 and 52. On 30 April 1917 he (apparently) shot down J J "Jack" Malone of No 3 Naval.

On 19 May 1918, Billik is credited by some with shooting down Albert D Carter DSO of No. 19 Sqdn. However, Carter always vehemently stated he had been forced down behind German lines by engine trouble, IIRC (see Stew Taylor's recent superb article).

On 1 June 1918, Billik seems to have shot down Capt Cairnes of No 74 Sqdn.

On 8 July, Billik apparently shot down Capt. Arthur Claydon of No 32 Sqdn. Billik himself was shot down and captured on 10 August 1918 (possibly by 32 Sqdn), thus he was 'robbed' of his chance of winning the PLM.


There are many other interesting possibilities to argue about.

Georg von Hantelmann definitely shot down David Putnam, and seems to have downed Joseph Wehner as well. He is often credited with downing Maurice Boyau on 16 September 1918, but French authorities say it's much more likley that Boyau fell to German ground fire with Hantelmann getting the credit.

The deadly Franz Buechner of Jasta 13 seems to have accounted for Major Callaghan MC, and possibly Lt. M S "Sammy" Taylor of No 209 Sqdn. Taylor himself had apparently downed Hans Weiss earlier.

The list goes on and on....

[Stephan]

Yes I've read about the Wisseman biz.

[Stephan]

Can't find anything on Norman McNaughton, but assuming Graeme is right, that still leaves MVR in 1st thus far with 6.