3 colour camo in Jasta 30 line up

[Brez]

Here is a familiar photo of Jasta 30 Albatros scouts. The nearest and the third along (Seitz D.767/17) both show the light colour (mixture of pale brunswick green & white) on their port wings. The middle DIII (Oberländer D.760/17) clearly doesn't. Would two aircraft from the same production order (750-799/17) leave the factory in different camouflage or is there some other explaination?
Cheers,
Tony.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hello Tony:
These two Albatros D.III production batches were anomally. It appears that D.600/17 to D.649/17 were finished in two colors, I believe camouflaged in two colors, pale green and dark green, while D.750/17 to D.799/17 are mixed in the two and three color schemes. While red browns have been elimanated, the three colors on Ltn. Seitz D.III 767/17 would presumably be pale green and dark green and lilac as specified in the 12 April 1917 Idflieg Directive. The first D.III in the row with the three color scheme, I would suggest the colors are Left to right, pale green, dark green and lilac. The second machine, with the two color scheme, is left to right, dark green, lilac and dark green.
Tony in my study of Albatros camouflages schemes, from the B.I through the J.II and licensed built, the Alb.C.XII and Alb.J.I machines were camouflaged in an identical manner as these 1917 Alb.D.III machines, which were produced at the same time as the C.XII and J.I.
Blue skies Tony,
Dan-San

[Brez]

Hi Dan-San,
Many thanks for your comprehensive reply. Ever since I saw the above photograph in the spring 2000 C&C I've wondered about this, doubting "in factory finish of three-colour camouflaged wings and tailplane" for D760/17 in Windsock's Albatros DIII special. You have confirmed my suspicions.
Thanks also for some interesting observations on the April 12th Idflieg directive, an issue rarely addressed by modellers and artists. Just how long it took to implement must be open to some speculation I suppose, Georg Simon's DIII 2015/16 still sporting light green/red brown/dark green when captured on 4th June.
I read in Greg VanWyngarden's Colour Notes in the aforementioned DIII Special that the capture report on DIII 796 (Georg Noth) states that the wings were painted green and light-blue so perhaps lilac was in short supply. I know - yet more speculation!

Cheers Dan-San,
Tony.

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Hi Dan-San,

I have had a very strong interest in the various Albatros aeroplanes for a long time, and we are lucky enough to have the most original of two D.Va's left here in Canberra.

The fact that your research indicates that the two batches of Albatros D.III's D.600 - 649 / '17 were an anomaly is not surprising. Such anomalies are very common for WW1 aeroplanes, and the study of these anomalies is a fascinating subject. WW1 aeroplane colours are a particularly difficult subject, and as you know, blues and yellows in particular do not always appear on early film in the shade which might be expected.

I have to admit that when I first saw the Albatros 3 toned camouflage depicted I was very skeptical, although I did not dismiss it of course, because I didn't know for certain one way or the other what the correct colours are for Albatros D.I's to D.III's in every case. Some of them are clearly clear doped and the later D.V's and D.Va's are much easier to research, given that a reasonable amount of fabric still exists for these models. Recently I even asked the question on this forum about Albatros 3 toned camouflage, and at least one member was kind enough to provide a link for me to have a look at, where this had been discussed previously. I have been unable to find this thread unfortunately and have tried many times to search for information about Albatros 3 toned camouflage without success. I am very happy to see this topic discussed again, given that I have a lot to learn about Albatros 3 toned camouflage, and other variations.

I am very interested in the Idflieg Directive dated 12th April 1917 that you have mentioned, and other such directives. Do you have copies of these directives, and / or have they been published? I can see what you mean about the first Albatros D.III photographed in the Jasta 30 line up. The shade (athough comparing shades with each other is not always a reliable indication of the colour as it appeared on the original aeroplane) certainly appears to be a very similar shade to that applied to the second D.III in the lineup, which as you have stated is clearly the two toned standard dark green \ lilac \ dark green.

I have two questions for you: when I first saw the 3 toned camouflage scheme depicted it was depicted (and has been on every subsequent occasion) as pale green \ rust brown \ dark green. Your description of pale green \ dark green \ lilac provided in the previous post is the first time I recall seeing any reference to such a scheme. I do not disagree with you, these colours certainly appear to be those you have described. Is your source for this the 12th April 1917 directive? If so, where would I be able to obtain a copy of this directive?

Secondly, the second D.III in the lineup certainly appears to be painted in standard dark green \ lilac \ dark green as you have stated. It does not appear to be the earlier dark green \ brown \ dark green. I have seen reference to this scheme applied to Albatros D.III's but it is more likely to be seen on an Albatros D.I or D.II. Is it currently believed that early Albatros D.III's had dark green \ brown \ dark green and later ones could have either dark green \ lilac \ dark green, pale green \ rust brown \ dark green or pale green \ dark green \ lilac? It is quite a few different schemes for one type of aeroplane, but looking at the Jasta 30 lineup and reading some of the information you and other members have provided it seems very likely that this is the case. Albatros 3 toned camouflage is starting to make a lot more sense to me now.

Thanks,

David.

[Gregvan]

Hi All,

If two whole batches were an anomaly, is that really an anomaly? Just a matter of semantics, I guess.

In my opinion it's really unwise to be too pedantic about these early camuflage patterns. Not enough info is available.

Here's a detail look at the photo Brez brought up:


Note that the very first aircraft in line seems to have two color swatches in the area near the radiator. Dave Roberts was of the opinion that some of these Jasta 30 machines had the radiator moved from the early central location to the starboard location in the field, by the Jasta 30 ground crew, and that this was the reason for some repainting in this area. I really don't know.

Here's a broader view of the line-up. This photo has SO much tantalizing detail and raises as many questions as it answers.



Here's a much earlier Jasta 30 Albatros D.III D.2126/16 in flight. It was assigned to Jasta 30 from AFP 6 on 27.3.17, but didn't stay long as it was despatched back to AFP 6 for repairs on 9.4.17. I'm not sure if the large white crossfields were an in-the-field paint application or an out-of-date factory application. What would you say the wing camouflage looks like?


Now, here's the same aircraft in a photo taken at the same time, but with the light at a different angle. Now look at the top and bottom wings.



Just food for thought.

Greg

[Brez]

Originally Posted by '14-'18aviationcollector

I am very interested in the Idflieg Directive dated 12th April 1917 that you have mentioned, and other such directives. Do you have copies of these directives, and / or have they been published?

Hi David,
Cross & Cockade Autumn 1962 has a piece entitled:
Translation of German Documents
Markings and Fabrics of German Aircraft.

The one that you refer to:
Telegram - Charlottenburg 12 April 1917
Red, or Red/Brown paint on top surfaces of wings has led to misunderstandings -- being taken to be enemy colors -- and led to fights between our own aircraft. Therefore DARK GREEN and LILAC should be used only.
These telegrams were sent to all aircraft firms, quite how they filtered down to Jasta level, if they did, I don't know.

Cheers,
Tony.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hi David:
Several years ago on one of my visits to University of Texas, Dallas I found the RFC intellligence report on the capture of Ltn. Georg Simon's being shot down and captured on 4 June 1917 while flying Alb.D.III 2015/16, detailed the camouflage giving somewhat precise color descriptions and patterns. I was surprised that this information had not been found before. I was discussing it with Greg and sent him a copy this was used in the rendering of the Albatros D.III illustration in his Osprey books on Albatros Aces, the publication date is 2000. The Intelligence Report illustration gave the colors and location, by matching that information gave us the tonal values of the colors in the photographs. Once the tonal values were identified, I knew the color patterns from the light, medium and dark grey tones in the photographs. That is how I was able to specify which colors were which in the Jasta 30 line up. I am a little surprised you are unaware of the three color camouflage on the Albatros D.III, this is about twelve to fourteen years ago. That Intelligence Report was Rosetta Stone on German camouflage for me, once the tonal values were identified I was able to define the camouflage schemes on all the Albatros C, D and J class aircraft as well. It eliminated about 95% of the guessing.
Blue skies David,
Dan-San

[Brez]

David,
"Do you have copies of these directives, and / or have they been published?"
I've scanned the C&C Translation of German Documents and posted them on your Profile page. I'm sure they will be very familiar to you as they have been re-printed in many publications since (1962).

Dan-San,
"I was discussing it with Greg and sent him a copy this was used in the rendering of the Albatros D.III illustration in his Osprey books on Albatros Aces, the publication date is 2000."
I hope you don't think I'm being picky, but wasn't it for Greg's von Richthofen's Flying Circus 1994?

A couple of questions off the top of my head;
Do we know if the telegram from Charlottenburg 12 April 1917 was intended for all German Air Service units, or just aircraft manufacturers?
We know that the conversion of Eiserne Kreuz to Balkenkreuz was carried out in the field, but this only required a relatively small amount of black and white. Did the Jastas have access to the amount of lilac dope needed to carry out such a large scale paint-job?
If the directive was followed to the letter both light green and red/brown would need to be over-painted. Does this mean that when we see three shades of grey in the photo we should assume that it was the original lg/rb/dg? Indeed should we assume anything?

Cheers,
Tony.

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Originally Posted by Gregvan

Hi All,

If two whole batches were an anomaly, is that really an anomaly? Just a matter of semantics, I guess.

In my opinion it's really unwise to be too pedantic about these early camuflage patterns. Not enough info is available.

Here's a detail look at the photo Brez brought up:


Note that the very first aircraft in line seems to have two color swatches in the area near the radiator. Dave Roberts was of the opinion that some of these Jasta 30 machines had the radiator moved from the early central location to the starboard location in the field, by the Jasta 30 ground crew, and that this was the reason for some repainting in this area. I really don't know.

Here's a broader view of the line-up. This photo has SO much tantalizing detail and raises as many questions as it answers.



Here's a much earlier Jasta 30 Albatros D.III D.2126/16 in flight. It was assigned to Jasta 30 from AFP 6 on 27.3.17, but didn't stay long as it was despatched back to AFP 6 for repairs on 9.4.17. I'm not sure if the large white crossfields were an in-the-field paint application or an out-of-date factory application. What would you say the wing camouflage looks like?


Now, here's the same aircraft in a photo taken at the same time, but with the light at a different angle. Now look at the top and bottom wings.



Just food for thought.

Greg

Hi Greg,

You are right, it is unwise to be too pedantic about these early camouflage since not enough information is available. I would like to think that someone, somewhere or a museum has an example of the earlier Albatros camouflage in their collection, but so far I have never seen or studied anything earlier than Albatros D.Va fabric.

I don't know how I missed it, since it is blatantly obvious but you are right, the first aeroplane in the line up certainly appears to have a large patch around the radiator repainted, probably as you suggested due to the relocation of the radiator. I briefly wondered if it could have been a patch of purple / lilac between the pale green and dark green, since the second patch looks to be a very similar shade to the last patch, but the demarcation line is parallel to the ribs, rather than sloping to the left ( \ ) as all the other demarcation lines do. This is very strong evidence for repainting around the area of the radiator, combined with the fact that the slightly darker patch covers both radiator positions. Thanks very much for posting other views or versions of this brilliant photo!

Thank you also for posting the photo of the earlier Jasta 30 Albatros D.III D.2126 / '16. I have an idea I have seen this and / or the other photo before. I am not sure what you are getting at with the wing camouflage. Many years ago I started to look for and collect (when I could afford them) original pieces of fabric, and to study others which were not for sale, since the study of original samples combined with the study of photographs such as the ones you have posted and documents where available is the only way to determine the original colours used. Even then there are never any guarantees about the authenticity of the colour schemes as we believe them to be, and most of the time there just is not very much information available, as you said. 2126 in the first photo looks to me to be the standard early green and brown - if there was such a scheme, but we have all been led to believe for many years that this is the case for early Albatros aeroplanes. The second photo looks more like it could have pale green applied to the wings, although there look to me to be only two shades, not three so I really don't know what to think.

Regards,

David.

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Originally Posted by Brez

Hi David,
Cross & Cockade Autumn 1962 has a piece entitled:
Translation of German Documents
Markings and Fabrics of German Aircraft.

The one that you refer to:
Telegram - Charlottenburg 12 April 1917
Red, or Red/Brown paint on top surfaces of wings has led to misunderstandings -- being taken to be enemy colors -- and led to fights between our own aircraft. Therefore DARK GREEN and LILAC should be used only.
These telegrams were sent to all aircraft firms, quite how they filtered down to Jasta level, if they did, I don't know.

Cheers,
Tony.

Hi Tony,

Thank you very much for the reference to the Cross and Cockade article. I don't have very many issues of Cross and Cockade but I buy them as they become available, so I will probably have that issue eventually if I don't have it already.

Regards,

David.