Spad X111 in British Squadrons.

Barry Hickson · 23 August 2010, 06:55 PM

G'day All!
I wanted to find out how many & which British Squadrons were equipped with the Spad X111. I know 23 Sqd was but wondered how many more.

Hope someone has a list!

ONEALM · 23 August 2010, 07:53 PM

Barry -

Pretty much certain 19 and 23 were the only units to receive XIII's in any number. 23 was fully re-equipped, 19 was not fully re-equipped before switching over to Dolphins.

I do not think any other unit received more than perhaps one.

Mike

Barry Hickson · 23 August 2010, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ONEALM

Barry -

Pretty much certain 19 and 23 were the only units to receive XIII's in any number. 23 was fully re-equipped, 19 was not fully re-equipped before switching over to Dolphins.

I do not think any other unit received more than perhaps one.

Mike

Thanks for your input Mike!

bristol scout · 24 August 2010, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ONEALM

Barry -

Pretty much certain 19 and 23 were the only units to receive XIII's in any number. 23 was fully re-equipped, 19 was not fully re-equipped before switching over to Dolphins.

I do not think any other unit received more than perhaps one.

Mike

Hi Mike, Barry,

I am not so sure about (23) "fully re-equipped"

Though I know the prevailing wisdom say's so-----yet again the 'chap who was there' disagrees a bit --

Willie Fry in 'Air Of Battle' (page 152) tells us-

"......a tiresome problem was that the higher authority appeared somewhat vague about the improved SPAD, and when we went to the depot for a replacement we were just as likely to be issued with one of the old type, either new or re-built, as with one of the new type...............it made for difficulties in the flights, having two types of the same aeroplane, one with better performance than the other....."

I think this 'variation of delivery' may also exist in 19 squadron---

PS-
72 squadron had SPAD VII's---"arriving in Basra in Jan. 1918 the sqadron split up, 'A' flight with DH4's SE5a's and SPADS going to Samarra....'B' flight with Martinsydes remaining at Baghdad and 'C' flight (with Bristol monoplanes) going to Mirjan...."

'Fighter Squadrons Of The RAF' J.D. Rawlings.

Both 30 and 63 squadron had a few SPADS in Mesopotamia as they were engaged in a 'bit of everything' out there. ALL the above (from the PS)were almost certainly SPAD VII's, though if Willie is correct--and I for one, do not doubt he is---can we be absolutely certain not one SPAD XIII went out?

Cheers,
Dave.

ONEALM · 24 August 2010, 08:17 AM

Dave -

Thanks for the update and possible correction. I may have made a leap, but will cite the sources just to round out the discussion.

From Davilla/Soltan's French Aircraft of the First World War -

"... This aircraft (S.XIII B'3479 - mjo) was subsequently sent to 19 Squadron and four victories were recorded in it. It was later sent to No. 23 Squadron, where it survived until March 1918, when it was struck off charge.

The aircraft's performance had proved sufficiently impressive for the RFC toissue an order for 60 SPAD 13's from the Kellner firm. The first were delivered in November 1917. Production delays caused by shortages of aluminum and fabric resulted in the last not being delivered untilMarch 1918. These aircraft featured the rounded tips although some were later modified to have the squared off edges.It appears from RFC records that only No.23 squadron used the the SPAD 13 in any numbers. The squadron was not completely re-equipped with Sopwith Dolphins until 4 May 1918, when it finally gave up its last SPAD 13.....

No 19 Squadron may have also received some SPAD 13's to supplement its SPAD 7s."

At least in the few references I have, there's no indication that 23 was "fully re-equipped".

There's a great photo in the SXIII Windsoc datafile on page 8 of a lineup of 23 Sq SPADs. It's a little too grainey for me to see if all 16 in the lineup are XIII's, but certainly the majority are.

Halley's "The Squadrons of the Royal AIr Force and Commonwealth 1918-1988" indicates No. 19 received at least one other SPAD XIII apart from the evaluation model B'3479, which was A'8794. Haven't seen anything that suggests 19 would have gotten them in any quantity which we agree on.

The bits about the Mesopotamia SPADs in interesting, thanks for that. That's the type of unit I would expect to see one-off's sent to.

Best I can do with the few resources at hand.....
Mike

bristol scout · 24 August 2010, 08:34 AM

Hi Mike,

No problem (though I seldom descend to semantics) ---just thought I'd 'pop' in Willie's observations as a possible corrective to your "fully re-equipped" as I know Barrie is 'involved'

with Willie at the moment.

All the best Mike,

Dave.

ONEALM · 24 August 2010, 11:17 AM

Thanks Dave - I can always use a hand. That line-up photo intrigues me. Not sure 16 was a full compliment, but it was probably pretty close. It would be interesting to see if that photo has a mixture fo VII and XIIIs.

Anyway, thanks again for the assist,
Mike

Barry Hickson · 24 August 2010, 07:55 PM

Thanks Dave & Mike for all the additional input!

That was interesting re the Middle East Squadrons.

Yes Dave, my investigations on Willie Fry continue. Hope I can pick up a copy of his book somewhere. Still Looking!

bristol scout · 31 August 2010, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ONEALM

Thanks Dave - I can always use a hand. That line-up photo intrigues me. Not sure 16 was a full compliment, but it was probably pretty close. It would be interesting to see if that photo has a mixture fo VII and XIIIs.

Anyway, thanks again for the assist,
Mike

Hi Mike, Barry,

Just noticed this (page 160) 'Air Of Battle'----which proves me quite wrong. It is obvious that 23 WERE eventually fully equipped with XIII's Mike---you were RIGHT

'To our astonishment, the next morning we recieved orders to fly all the old SPADS back to the aircraft depot and to collect new types in place of them'.

This would have been Jan. 1918 after a visit from Salmond.

My apologies for leading us astray a bit chaps

Cheers,
Dave.

ONEALM · 31 August 2010, 10:24 AM

Dave -

Not "astray" - just took us - and when I say "us" here, I mean you - a while to get to the bottom of it. It's exactly why we have these discussions.

Now one of us better write it down so we're not having the same discussion 5 years from now....

Thanks for keeping after this one -
MIke