Real Spandau lmg 08/15 access?

hoodoo · 14 August 2010, 09:04 AM

Does anyone have access to a real Spandau LMG 08/15? I am trying to confirm the length of the visible portion of the aircraft cooling jacket excluding the portion that slips into the cups on each end. I have seen several plans and a kit set, but I want to get verification from the real thing.

John McKenzie · 14 August 2010, 09:56 AM

All the 4 dimensions below have been measured directly from an actual example and they do check out re the addition :-

Front portion 44 mm
Middle " 456,5 mm
Rear portion 58,5 mm
--------------------

Total ............ 559 mm

(All dimensions measured from an actual MG)

Note ..These Dims will be within factory limits and so are an example only of such ...Factory Design Dimensions with +- limits may give slightly different Max & Min , figures for High & Low limits .

John M

hoodoo · 14 August 2010, 10:59 AM

Thank you John....kind of good news and bad news, this means our pattern for the laser cutter is off but then again, knowledge is knowledge and it confirms the beautiful scale drawings from Arizona models although I hope they have permission to post them (they don't charge for them). The drawings were done by Ray Hollings back in 71 and are published as such. He might have intended have intended them to go "public", not sure but they are indeed a treasure.

Just found an interesting discussion on gunboards where they show that DR 1's and maybe DVII's? used parabellum belts rather than three holed MG 08 belts or did they make larger chutes later to handle the larger belts, looks like they would have had to be rather massive.

Holling's mentions this as a "mystery" in his 1971 drawings in which he uses three holed belts but he is definitely questioning how they fit into the narrower chutes.

Gunboards has this extensive discussion on this subject with pics along with a new pic of one of Richthofen's surviving chutes. Note sure if this has been discussed on this site.

Sandau LMG 08/15 Ammo Belt????

Al

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McKenzie

All the 4 dimensions below have been measured directly from an actual example and they do check out re the addition :-

Front portion 44 mm
Middle " 456,5 mm
Rear portion 58,5 mm
--------------------

Total ............ 559 mm

(All dimensions measured from an actual MG)

Note ..These Dims will be within factory limits and so are an example only of such ...Factory Design Dimensions with +- limits may give slightly different Max & Min , figures for High & Low limits .

John M

John McKenzie · 14 August 2010, 03:15 PM

Hi , Yes it has been discussed many times before .

The 3 rivet belt was used by the infantry ...This tagged belt will not fit down the shoots used , and was Not used on Fwd firing MG's ...End of story , and so no mystery

John

Laserlloyd · 14 August 2010, 04:18 PM

hoodoo,

That's my thread I started but what this on "Richthofen's surviving chutes?" that not in my thread. I looked and I can find anything on this? I also have one on the MG42 forum.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here I'm talking to Herman the German about Dave Watts gun collection. What a treat it was to help Dave at the DPR 2009 show. He is the most knowledgeable person on the LMG 08/15 in the world.

To clear up some of the mystery on the gun belts. We must be fair and say that the three rivet with the 60mm metal space was used by some aircraft manufactures. I will say that Fokker ONLY use the two rivet 30mm belt on his aircraft including his 12 barrel mini-gun . this is a fact as I don't have it in writing but from photographic evidence on his aircraft including the Fokker Factory photos that Dave also has. I have been researching this for a while for a project for the AWM and there is nothing that would suggest anything else. On the other hand some other aircraft manufactures did, this can also be seen in photos of them.

Here is a photo of a Fokker Dr.I showing the 30mm two rivet ammunition belt.

Here is another photo of a Fokker Dr.I being dismantled.
(Photo-Greg van WynGarden)

Here is Ltn. Kurt Wintgens Fokker E.IV. (this is a MG 08/15 not a LMG 08/15) again with the 30mm ammunition belt.

.

Lloyd...

hoodoo · 14 August 2010, 08:35 PM

Thanks Lloyd. There are so many DR 1's and DVII's around in museums and the like and very few (haven't found one yet) that show the correct combination of ammo belts, belt chutes, etc and this really hurts modelers and restorers. I realize that many of these planes even the originals lost their MG's early and then got original MG's added but with no thought to getting all the attachments and such done correctly.
Me I am just a newbie learning about this now that our group has decided to upgrade the MG's on our flying DR 1 and finally put MG's on our DVII and now we want to do it right on both with all the bells and whistles at least representative of the complete LMG 08/15 "egg" of proper belts, belt chutes, spent cartridge trays, and correct type of aviation belt switches, the early type of "switch" on the DR 1 and the later long handled Klingstrom on the DVII. We can't afford the "replica" models but we have made reasonable facsmiles for the DR1 (which we are going upgrate) and will try to do it better with the DVII guns. Hopefully this will inspire others to do the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laserlloyd

hoodoo,

That's my thread I started but what this on "Richthofen's surviving chutes?" that not in my thread. I looked and I can find anything on this? I also have one on the MG42 forum.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here I'm talking to Herman the German about Dave Watts gun collection. What a treat it was to help Dave at the DPR 2009 show. He is the most knowledgeable person on the LMG 08/15 in the world.

To clear up some of the mystery on the gun belts. We must be fair and say that the three rivet with the 60mm metal space was used by some aircraft manufactures. I will say that Fokker ONLY use the two rivet 30mm belt on his aircraft including his 12 barrel mini-gun . this is a fact as I don't have it in writing but from photographic evidence on his aircraft including the Fokker Factory photos that Dave also has. I have been researching this for a while for a project for the AWM and there is nothing that would suggest anything else. On the other hand some other aircraft manufactures did, this can also be seen in photos of them.

Here is a photo of a Fokker Dr.I showing the 30mm two rivet ammunition belt.

Here is another photo of a Fokker Dr.I being dismantled.
(Photo-Greg van WynGarden)

Here is Ltn. Kurt Wintgens Fokker E.IV. (this is a MG 08/15 not a LMG 08/15) again with the 30mm ammunition belt.

.

Lloyd...

Dave_Watts · 16 August 2010, 02:54 PM

Hi all,

Lloyd, thanks for the kudos. Good job posting and points well illustrated.

I'm of the mind or "school" that the two-rivet "Parabellum" belt is "the" universal belt used for all German aircraft fighters and most likely all other Front Line service aircraft. I have seen very isolated instances of the "ground belt" being utilized on a fighter. One that comes to mind was a flight training school D.VII with all mismatched components, (rudder, elevator, wings, etc.). I believe home defence and seaplanes may have utilized the larger ground belts.

Lloyd, how big do they calculate the "big" Parabellum belt is?...250, or 500 or 1000? What I'm looking for is a commonality to the capacity and therefore usage of the two-rivet belt for lmg Maxims as well as Parabellums.

Lloyd, where did you see utilization of the "ground belt" with tabs for aircraft? (I probably have seen the photos and have forgotten them.)

Best,
Dave W.

hoodoo · 16 August 2010, 03:32 PM

Are there any surviving spandaus with the spent cartridge chutes/trays still mounted or plans for same? I can't quite see how they are attached to the gun. Were these made out of light steel or brass?

Dave_Watts · 16 August 2010, 06:27 PM

Hi all,

Hi Hoodoo, there are surviving examples of the ejection chutes, but they are few and far between. The type fitted depended on the type of aircraft it was mountd on. Some have a round pipe riveted on the bottom of the gun to direct the shell casings. Some have a deflector tang to angle the shell away into the slipstream. Others have chutes, these are left and right oriented. There is a hanger slot on the lower right hand side of the gun below and aft of the feedblock. This hanger slot can be utilized by an upside down square sided "U" shaped piece of metal. With the udside down steel "U", you can rivet two vertical rivets to an ejection chute. That is what holds it on and often these upside down "U" pieces are present with two empty holes where the rivets used to go.

As said really depends on the exact type you are building as well as the time period.

Best,
Dave W.

Maxim08 · 16 August 2010, 07:26 PM

hoodoo,
Just to confuse things for you, here is one style of deflector chute different from what is usually pictured. I assume that this is the right handed unit from a pair of guns. Dave, it's a 4 digit 'B' which is what, later in the war ie about 1916 - 17?

hoodoo, you need to understand that the spent cartridge is ejected forward from the firing block through a hole in the receiver just aft of the trunnion. You could, I guess, direct the round just about any direction that provides some gravity assist.
Regards,
John