Breguet's Airctaft ID Challenge #706

[Rbailey]

Something for the flying boat afficionados.


The scoreboard after challenge #705: Oeffag Type BF (Serial 50.13)
127.40 Varese2002 ¤¤
93.00 Dave_Kent ¤
81.20 Rbailey ¤
33.30 Cruze ¤
28.70 richard B ¤
24.70 Aquilius
21.20 YavorD
20.35 Froggy
19.80 Lodzermensch
15.90 Flamingo
13.80 Rod Filan
10.45 GregE
09.50 matte_kudasai
09.00 Breguet
08.70 Dan-San
08.40 JohnMacG
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.30 Patrick
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Ampovandak
06.70 Berman
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
05.90 Doc
05.70 AROTH
05.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Maze
05.20 Gilles
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 Tom L..........................have to wait 12 hours

04.70 dpolglaze........................ may start immediately
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.20 Rufe
04.00 greenknight
04.00 sobrien
03.90 Brad
03.00 SCMc
02.50 Gregoire
02.50 Rexee
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 austin08
02.00 Rickenbaron
01.70 Kilian
01.60 airplane176
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.50 Albatros_Ace
01.30 Cigogne
01.30 ckingh5
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 Catfish
01.30 ckingh5
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Luf-Rick
01.00 Mike Westorp
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 SL DIII
01.00 Tripehound
00.90 Stig Jarlevik
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 Mad Mac
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 ’14-‘18aviationcollector
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd30
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fisher


Previous challenges are at: Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's Aircraft Challenge* --

Quote:
The Rules:

The thread title must be "Bréguet's aircraft ID challenge #......"
The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.
The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference).
Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified (always check the list at Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's Aircraft Challenge* -- when in doubt !).
If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted.
Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
The final arbiter in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

[Varese2002]

Hmm.... do you have facts that this machine / model was still flying on January 1, 1914 or later ?

Cheers

Kees

[ermeio]

Donnet Levesque flying Boat,
Donnet Denhaut, as it should be called, since it become known as Donnet Levesque later
I suppose

ermeio

[SCMc]

Hi ermeio,

It looks to me like you may be correct, but to get credit for your answer, you must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.

Steve

[ermeio]

This looks to be one of the first built from Donnet, with the characteristic triangular section of the rear fuselage (after the wing trailing edge) and the rectangular directional tailplane.
The wheels are anothe distinctive characteristic of this aircraft.
ermeio

[Rbailey]

I think this may be a problem. The source of the picture identified it as Donnet-Denhaut DD 1 of 1915, and Ermeio's identification would be valid, but I now realize that this same picture is identified elsewhere as the 1912 Donnet machine, which is described as very similar. I think that is what Kees was referring to. I am inclined to think that the identification of my picture is incorrect, which disqualify this challenge. Can anyone supply an authentic view of the DD1?

[Aquilius]

I suspect the pciture comes from here: Donnet-Denhaut Flying Boat

In the Gérard Hartmann dossiers this picture is identified as "Denhaut type B", respectively "Donnet-Lévêque type B" (1912) [Cliché Musée de
l’Air]

It was a two-seater developement of the 1911 type A "Bateau Volant" with 50 hp Gnôme to suit the navy requirements.
Source: http://www.hydroretro.net/etudegh/donnetl.pdf
(look on page 3)


The Donnet-Denhaut DD-1 is always charaterised to look similar to the 1912 Denhaut flying boat and I believe this is referring to the type C from 1912 which was also powered by an 80 hp rotary engine - Gnôme instead of LeRhône with the DD-1.
It was again planned with a wheel landing gear, retractable this time, but it was not mounted.
I don't think the 1915 developement did come with wheels.
(though Louis Schreck tried this again on his FBA type D "Avion Cannon" one year later)

Unfortunately I could not locate a picture of the DD-1, but I believe this had more similarities to the DD-2 than to the one offered.


Cheers

Aquilius

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Rbailey

I think this may be a problem. The source of the picture identified it as Donnet-Denhaut DD 1 of 1915, and Ermeio's identification would be valid, but I now realize that this same picture is identified elsewhere as the 1912 Donnet machine, which is described as very similar. I think that is what Kees was referring to. I am inclined to think that the identification of my picture is incorrect, which disqualify this challenge. Can anyone supply an authentic view of the DD1?

If something is complex then it is the early French history of flying boats (hydravions) Perhaps it will never be known exactly it all.

On the picture is the second design of Denhaut, sometimes called the Type B, but surely that is a later designation to seperate designs from each other. So the type is mostly known as Denhaut Type B, dated 1912 (so quite early)

In France there was the habit to name the financier also in the name, so the names Donnet-Denhaut. Probably (?) Donnet made some contributions to Denhaut for this machine.

Also firms continually changed names and legality, for instance

In 1914 Jérôme Donnet and François Denhaut, who had worked together at Société des Hydroaéroplanes Donnet-Lévêque, formed Société des Établissements Donnet-Denhaut. In 1919, Denhaut left, and the company was renamed Hydravions J. Donnet.

Obviously the first machine from the Société des Établissements Donner-Denhaut was the D.D.1 of 1914. Given the scarce data (sometimes contradicted) this was a one only machine, powered by a 80/90 hp rotary in pusher configuration. AFAIK I have never seen any reliable pictures of the D.D.1.

The Challenge machine is IMO pre-1914, given the very early looks of the machine and the carriage on which it it taken in the water.

François Denhaut obtained French patents in 1912/1914 for flying boats.

As I said in the beginning French flying boat history is a worm's nest with Denhaut, Donnet, Lévêque, Tellier, Schreck etc. wringing together

Cheers

Kees

[Aquilius]

Kees, you are right! The wheels belong to a carrier to get the flying boat moved on the ground.

I mixed up some facts here, while reading about planned amphibious types that never were realized. None of Denhaut's types did come with wheels.


And I also agree that the type-designations A, B, C were assigned later. The second machine (Type B) was the first built by the Donnet-Lévêque company, that was founded cause Denhaut needed a propper workshop to make his flying boat fit to navy requirements. It was then named after the guys with the money - "Donnet-Lévêque".


But there is one fact I don't agree with.
Francois Victor Denhaut built (after glider-trials) his first powered aircraft, a biplane, in 1908. Then a Wright-copy in 1909 and at least the heavy staggered racing biplane "Le Danton" (financed by Frédéric Danton) in 1910 before he set his focus on flying boats.


Something little off-topic.
But the unique Donnet-Denaut DD-1 remains a little mystery.


Cheers

Aquilius

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Aquilius

But there is one fact I don't agree with.
Francois Victor Denhaut built (after glider-trials) his first powered aircraft, a biplane, in 1908. Then a Wright-copy in 1909 and at least the heavy staggered racing biplane "Le Danton" (financed by Frédéric Danton) in 1910 before he set his focus on flying boats.

Something little off-topic.
But the unique Donnet-Denaut DD-1 remains a little mystery.

Cheers

Aquilius

You are right, I must formulate more precisely. I rephrase the sentence

On the picture is the second flying boat (hydravion) design of Denhaut, sometimes called the Type B, but surely that is a later designation to seperate designs from each other. So the type is mostly known as Denhaut Type B, dated 1912 (so quite early)

As an extra, I forgot to name Georges Levy as an extra French figure in flying boat design and construction. This clouds the whole history of French flying boats even further.

Kees