British Night Flying Markings

JohnFitz · 15 November 2009, 06:11 AM

Reading the book, "The Martinsyde File" by Ray Sanger and found that the Martinsyde F.3, B1494, was " delivered 5.18, in night flying markings". This was one of four F.3's used for Home Defense. I have also been reading the Windsock Datafile Fabric Special No2, and it describes Orfordness's efforts to find a good night flying camo. which was called Nivo or otherwise was black. Is it possible that B1494 was delivered in this finish or were just the roundels and other markings done in "night flying" colors? Thanks for your consideration.

JohnFitz · 19 November 2009, 07:36 AM

Okay guy's, A few more pieces of the puzzle. I found this remark in the Windsock Datafile Fabric special," The attention of all concerned is directed to the following distinctive marking, which it has been decided shall be adopted for black-winged night flying aeroplanes". Can or will anyone comment on what "blacked-winged" means? Is there any evidence anywhere that suggests that only wings were painted black or the bottoms of wings and fuselage? I know that the RAF painted the undersides of Hurricane's and Spits black during WW2. Here's a popular photo of a F3a Buzzard. I know there is a lot of shadow but could it be possible or is it likely the undersides were painted black? Since the roundel can't be seen on the bottom of the bottom wing I believe the blue and red night roundel was used.

'14-'18aviationcollector · 19 November 2009, 07:51 AM

Hi John,

Thanks for the comments and the photo. I certainly wish I could help you but I don't know much about British night flying camouflage. I have seen many photos of roundels which have had the white scrubbed out with a dirty colour, presumably black or grey and I have recently seen some photos of an FE2 which was either restored (if it is an original) or constructed by one of the members of this site. It seems to be painted completely black, which would make sense for a night fighter. I am sure that many night fighters would have been standard P.C. 10 with darkened roundels, but it seems that there must have been some aeroplanes which were painted black. I have heard of NIVO but have never seen an original sample of it, so I could not tell you what colour it was. When you say "Nivo or otherwise was black", do you mean that Nivo was black, or that night fighters sometimes used Nivo or black? I always imagined that Nivo would have been a darker version of P.C. 10, but I don't know.

Thanks for any help or comments you might be able to offer, and I certainly wish I could help you more! I just wanted to let you know about the photo of the black FE2 and to find out anything else you might know about British night fighter camouflage.

Regards,

David.

JohnFitz · 19 November 2009, 08:34 AM

Well David, thanks for looking in. I just read this in the Windsock Datafile Fabric Special No.2, " the term Nivo was applied to a colour of dark slate green and had no relation to the matt qualities of varnish". What is interesting to me is the picture of the "actual fabric" PC12 sample provided in this publication. It sure looks like it fits the Nivo description. The Methuen # given for Nivo is 29F2/F3 and the FS# is 34096. Can you (or anyone else) show a photo of what 29F2/F3 looked like? Cheers.
John

JohnFitz · 19 November 2009, 08:44 AM

I also just found this from another previous thread. The F.E.2B and 2D used for night bombers were painted matt black on the undersides of the wing, tailplane, fuselage and sides of the fuselage and rudder. The white ring of the under wing cockades were painted matt black as were all struts and wheel covers. The upper surface of the wings,tailplane and fuselage were painted P.C.10 with standard cockades on the upper surface of the top wing. I don't think the HP O/100 and O/400 machines were painted black, I believe they were painted with NIVO, (Night Invisible Varnish Overall?) defined in one source as "dark slate green" overall. On HP O/100 standard roundels were used on both sides of the upper wing, fuselage and red-white-blue stripes of both rudders. With the HP O/400 the standard roundels of smaller size were used in the same positions. The rudder stripes were about half the height of the rudder and were contained in a square of three equal width stripes, red aft with and blue forward.
blue skies,
Dan-San

'14-'18aviationcollector · 19 November 2009, 08:53 AM

It's great to learn about different aspects of First World War aviation, and I have often wondered about Nivo and other night fighting colours. There isn't a lot written about it relatively speaking, although you mentioned the Windsock Datafile Fabric Special Number 2, which I don't think I have ever seen, so there are obviously publications in circulation which address night fighting camouflage. I had an idea it was a dark slate green. what does the statement "and had no relation to the matt qualities of varnish" mean? I have been told that matting agents had not been invented during the First World War, and every authentic fabric sample I have ever seen confirms this. Varnish and dopes tended to be applied very sparingly onto aeroplanes, so the gloss or semi gloss is not always as obvious as it would be if it had been a full, thick coat or a full, thick series of coats, and it is obvious when examining authentic samples and photographs that varnish and dopes became dull relatively quickly.

Unfortunately I can't help you with the Methuen or FS colours. I matched some samples of MvR's triplane 425 / '17 to the Methuen Handbook of Colour once but I used Colin Ower's book, which I had borrowed. As you know, it is reasonably difficult to find. I have or had a Pantone reference colour fan, but I don't know where it is unfortunately.

I haven't seen the Pantone book, my SE5a and Sopwith Pup drawings, or my DH9 notes for quite some time .... must be getting old and senile ....

I usually don't lose ANYTHING!!! Hopefully they will all show up. Hopefully one day I will be able to find and to afford a Methuen handbook of colour, but in the meantime I can't help you unfortunately, other than to tell you that there are various cross references to the various colour systems which have been mentioned on this site, and there would be a lot of information available online. Someone will post some colour references on this thread soon. I have seen various colour chips posted on various threads on this site.

Regards,

David.

JohnFitz · 19 November 2009, 09:14 AM

David, from the Datafile," ' Nivo had the power of reflection approximately the same as that of land and sea". So, it was thought that some "reflection" gave the most effective camo. for night flying. They also said Nivo was not the perfect all around solution.

bristol scout · 19 November 2009, 09:52 AM

There is a photo of a Sopwith Snipe F2390 also at Biggin Hill in 1919 (37 squadron)as a night fighter---with holt flares under the lower wings as you would expect and full ordinary roundels (including under lower wings)---but with definately Clear Doped lowers. It is in 'Fighter Squadrons Of The R.A.F.' --page 103

Most Night fighting Camels had white areas of roundels and fin stripes overpainted in (probably) P.C.10 or 12----but otherwise were quite 'standard' finish-- and I am suspicious of 'All Black' finishes..

Cheers,
Dave.

JohnFitz · 19 November 2009, 10:36 AM

Thanks for your input Dave. The above posted photo of the Martinsyde F3 clearly shows a dark overall finish both top, bottom and sides. The prop also appears to have been blacked out. It is just a guess that this aircraft and B1494 were finished in Nivo but the date of "5.18" fits the time at which Orfordness was experimenting with Nivo. I will never get a definitive answer but It seems probable that these two Martinsyde F3 were done in "night flying" schemes. I am hoping maybe something new might pop up. Cheers.