James McCudden VS Ernst Udet

[Nacho]

Here's a little fun thing. Take any 2 aces from WW1, allied or central and put up them against each other. Who would win in a dogfight? James McCudden or Ernst Udet?

[JFM]

Anybody could shoot down anybody else provided he attacked with surprise, which was the preferred methodology. Beyond that I'm not much help because any sort of what-if "Waldo Pepper" scenarios involve far too much speculation for me to answer.

[Sagittarius]

I totally agree. Speculations like this are aboslutely pointless. It's like the game I played as a child "which action-hero would win a duel - Schwarzenegger or Stallone"

no thanks!

[Chock]

Well, we can never know with things like that, it would depend on a lot of things, but here's a rough guess anyway...

Presumably McCudden would be in an SE5a, and we know he was meticulous about his aircraft's mechanical condition, so we can assume it would achieve pretty much the advertised top speed of 138 mph. Udet would be in either a Fokker DVII or a Dr1, or at a push an Albatros DVa. Both the Albatros and the DVII have a top speed of a shade under 120 mph, a bit more for the later high compression version, the Dr1 is a bit slower than all of them. As far as service ceiling goes, given enough time they could probably all scrape their way up to 20,000 feet, so ceiling is no advantage except perhaps for the Triplane a bit, since it has a faster rate of climb, but everything can extend range on it, so that's no big plus. Armament is roughly comparable on all types too. But.. the SE5a has a longer endurance, so that gives McCudden the advantage, since his speed allows him to keep out of range, but in contact, until things suit him (i.e. wait until the other aircraft runs out of fuel and has to turn for home), whereupon it gets a sitter shot up the ass through the Aldis sight. Swap planes and Udet wins.

Next week, I'll be analysing how the Salvation Army would fare against the MPLA.

Al

[Barrett]

Rickenbacker vs Luke:
Both fly the same airplane--N.28 or SPAD 13. A pure contest of skill without technical advantage.
Hee.

[R Gannon]

Yes I think this one on one thing in some kind of neutral environment is all fanciful & fertive imagination.

Pointedly Udet's Js 37 did begin to operate over the Ypres Salient in Oct 17 making it possible Udet & JTB exchanged shots - but as far as I can see the only encounter between Js 37 and 56 Sqn occurred on morning of 18 Oct 17 when C Flight after an earlier fight with Jasta 27 came across two German 2-seaters being shaddowed by 4 Alb Scouts. Lt's Hoidge & Gilbert attacked these two-seaters only to be dived on by a persistant Albatros which was driven off the tails of both Gilbert and Hoidge by Capt Bowman. Hoidge went onto send his 2-seater down but was unable to see crash as he had to go to aid of Gilbert who was again under attack from the persistant Albatros whilst engaging and apparently getting his 2-seater OOC. Hoidge drove off the Albatros but Gilbert failed to return from the patrol crashing to his death in German lines on B528 - Udet histories record that he was able to shoot down one of two 'Sopwiths' attacking two LVG's.

This was Udets 14th Luftseige but this presents a picture somewhat short of the romantic picture of being some kind of great airfighter as some would believe. British airmen would refere to these kind of tactics as 'Hunish'.

Cheers Russ

[stephen]

Originally Posted by RussGannon

Yes I think this one on one thing in some kind of neutral environment is all fanciful & fertive imagination.

Yes, but its fun. (Sometimes we get so studious that we forget to have some).

Udet wins a decision when, after six minutes of circling, Mac's SE loses altitude and has to run. Think Hawker vs. MvR.

Luke in a first round knockout.

[Gregvan]

I'm in total agreement with JFM and others who find this kind of a pointless exercise, involving far too much speculation. On any given day, if someone achieved surprise and luck, they could shoot down an experienced ace (think Avery vs. Menckhoff). As the Germans say, "One must have luck."

Udet may never have fought McCudden, but he did fight a lengthy combat with Capt. Tom Falcon Hazell, DSO, DFC, leader of 'A' Flight of No. 24 Squadron (with an eventual 43 victories) in his SE5a, on a blazing hot 22 August 1918. Udet was flying his BMW-engined Fokker D.VII F, and Hazell was in SE5a B8422 (though McCudden didn't survive long enough to have fought with Udet in a D.VII, perhaps this is a good analogy). I believe Russ Gannon and/or Peter Kilduff was the first to figure this confrontation out. Udet wrote eloquently about this hard-fought struggle in Mein Fliegerleben, and so have Peter Kilduff, Jon Guttman, Mike O'Connor and I in our various books. Udet arrived just a bit too late to prevent Hazell from buring a German balloon, then chased the SE5a home in a long and harrowing pursuit at tree-top level. Udet thought he had shot the SE down (and was credited), but Hazell managed to make it back to Bertangles. To quote the 24 Squadron report, "Capt. Hazell was then seen home by the enemy aircraft, who shot his tank, longerons and propeller to pieces." The SE was soon struck off strength as unrepairable. Udet, on the other hand, was then attacked by three SE's of Hazell's Flight, and one of them chased Udet back. In the heat of the August day, Udet saw that his phosphorus ammnition was starting to ignite. He quickly squeezed the triggers to get rid of the unstable ammo, and was shocked to see the SE5 pulling away...

So both pilots survived this harrowing combat. That's why I like it.

[R Gannon]

Well great minds must think alike, because I also made the Hazell v Udet connection long ago and indeed passed it around behind the scenes to several luminaries. SK Taylor was so impressed that he kindly provided me with 24 Sqn SRB for that fight. I think off the cuff Udet referred to Crossen & co as three proven flyers - as indeed they were.

"Mac's SE looses hieght and has to run" - well of course he would, as like all RFC / RAF fighter pilots he fought his air war over the German side. Sooner or later one had to retire back across lines. The fun thing is to wonder how Udet would have gone if he was caught by Mac over the British side. Maybe Udet would have meekly put his plane down and surrendered like Noth & Clausnitzer.

However on the point of aces fighting aces. Here is another interesting one. On 14 Oct 17 six of B&C Flights 56 Sqn had an escort job for some 27 Sqn Martinsydes which saw them first have an indecisive scrap with 6 EA scouts. I will now quote JTB's CR as to what happened next:

'...At 11.10 was attacked from above by 2 V Strutters over Zonnebeke. One EA broke off engagement but the other fought Lt Gilbert and I for 5 minutes. EA manouvred very well but after diving on Lt Gilbert, got below me and then I sat on his tail and drove EA down to 7,000 feet over Passchendaele, when EA went into a big cloud apparently OK. No more petrol so returned.'

JTB was flying B4863.

Now the Js 27 KTB as reproduced in OTF Vol 10 informs us that Bruno Loerzer (SF Js 26) and Herman Goering (SF Js 27) flew a mission together that same time frame and area which resulted in an indecisive fight with 2 'SPAD's' (sic) & 8 Martinsydes!!!!!

I like to think it was Herman who bugged out first and that Bruno was the one who fought it out for 5 minutes. But of course if this had occurred over the British side, Bruno may well have been invited to 56 Sqn mess that night for drinks. No doubt would tell Maxwell that Jeffs was ok. But might have passed more serious news of Sloley.

Cheers Russ

[Brez]

Originally Posted by stephen

Yes, but its fun. (Sometimes we get so studious that we forget to have some).

Udet wins a decision when, after six minutes of circling, Mac's SE loses altitude and has to run. Think Hawker vs. MvR.

Luke in a first round knockout.

So it's hyperthetical but were still over hun lines, what next Marciano vs Ali but the ref's in the Klan?