Looking for No. 60 Sqn RFC SE.5a markings

[One-Oh-Four]

The Dutch Luchtvaartafdeeling has used an interned SE.5a from "B"-Flight, No. 60 Sqn RFC in 1918. It was B4885. The British roundels were painted out with the Dutch orange "meatballs" of the time and the squadron markings were presumably painted over with the Dutch Khaki camouflage-paint. On pictures those areas cannot be seen so I'd like to know which areas I have to paint subtly different on my model.

I hope anyone can help me out! Thanks in advance!



Scan posted with permission from Dutch Decal.

Best regards,
Erik.

[Rowan Broadbent]

Hello Erik,

At the time of this aircraft being interned, 60 sqn markings consisted of a white circle behind the cockade on the fuselage and repeated above behind the headrest.

The individual aircraft letter or number appears to have been painted in front of the cockade and repeated in enlarged form on the upper wing centre section. It may also have appeared beneath one of the lower wings in black or even cockade blue.

As this was from a batch of 200 constructed by the Royal Aircraft Factory, Farnborough, it would almost certainly have worn the wing cockades in the inboard position, just missing the ailerons. The serial would have appeared on the fin in white.

I don't know the allocated letter or number of this particular aircraft, so I've shown it as 'E' - it would not have been 'A', 'G' or 'Z' as these were usually reserved for the flight commanders (or '1' if numbers were used for 'B' Flight).

As the Dutch cockades have been painted in the outboard positions, the British ones (if they were in the inboard position) would have been painted out (peresumably in a light colour beneath the wings). The letter on the upper c/s would also have been painted out.

Here's my best guess at a before and after side view:



I've missed off the LVA letering and serial number!

Incidentally, the SE5 file lists this aircraft as having a 150hp Hispano Suiza engine when built, but the LVA designation indicates that this was replaced at some point with a 200hp version.

Hope that helps!

Edit: I've just noticed that you mentioned that the aircraft was from 'B' flight, so it would therefore have been marked H,I,J,K ,L or 2,3,4,or 5 - not E as I've shown it.

[One-Oh-Four]

Thanks Rowan! Youre post is very helpful indeed! It's unfortunate that the position of the Dutch overwing insignia can't be seen on the top photo. Maybe the orange circles were just painted over the British insignia inboard of the ailerons... Certainly makes the scheme more interesting! Luuk from Dutch Deacal also states that the armament was removed. This was certainly the case with the Lewis gun (or double overwing installation as Luuk mentions) but looking at the pictures it seems to me that the Vickers in the fuselage was retained. Can't see the point in flying unarmed fighters in an army tasked to protect the neutrality although the Dutch are known for their peaceful character.... Just don't ask the Indonesians, particularly the people of Atjeh!

[Rowan Broadbent]

Erik, I'd treat what I said about the position of the wing cockades with a bit of caution. Whilst I'm pretty confident that all this batch would originally have had the inboard position as completed at Farnborough - this aircraft was subjected to repair after an accident before being issued to 60 sqn.

If this entailed wing replacement or re-covering (fairly likely), then there is no guarantee that the original position would have been maintained. The underside Dutch markings are certainly in the outer posistion and I therefore would be confident that the upper ones were similarly placed, simply painting over the British colours with orange.

[One-Oh-Four]

Hmmmm, that indeed does make sense! Outboard positions it'll be, then! And if that would be inaccurate, I dare the mechanic who painted this aircraft to come forward and challenge me!
But then an incriminating photo is bound to show up!
Thanks again!

[Martin322]

Hello Guys,

i am new here, and stumbled accross this thread while searching for info on "the" Dutch SE5a, as I too have recently purchased the Wingnut model.
I wrote a long answer 5 minutes ago, but it backfired on me because, as a new member, i can not post internet links....
However, if you use these addresses, and first add the "http://" -bit. it should work;
img24.imageshack.us/i/lvase5.jpg
img266.imageshack.us/i/lvase5a.jpg/
These pictures were published in an article by a local historical study group of the area where the aeroplane actually landed in 1918. They clearly show that;
- the roundels on the upper wing are in the outer position
- there is no personal letter besides the white disk.

By the way, the kit is fabulous, and i am now looking foreward to the DVII!

Martin.

[One-Oh-Four]

Originally Posted by Martin322

Hello Guys,

i am new here, and stumbled accross this thread while searching for info on "the" Dutch SE5a, as I too have recently purchased the Wingnut model.
I wrote a long answer 5 minutes ago, but it backfired on me because, as a new member, i can not post internet links....
However, if you use these addresses, and first add the "http://" -bit. it should work;
img24.imageshack.us/i/lvase5.jpg
img266.imageshack.us/i/lvase5a.jpg/
These pictures were published in an article by a local historical study group of the area where the aeroplane actually landed in 1918. They clearly show that;
- the roundels on the upper wing are in the outer position
- there is no personal letter besides the white disk.

By the way, the kit is fabulous, and i am now looking foreward to the DVII!

Martin.

Hi Martin,

Thanks for your input! Unfortunately I can't seem to get the links complete in the right way... Must be doing something wrong... Maybe you can mail me the actual links at one-oh-four<at>live.nl? Alvast hartelijk bedankt!

BTW, about your D. VII-remark; the buzz is that WNW will announce something new at the "NZ Nationals". If it's a kit then the Gotha is first in line since it's product number is 32005, but we never know, now do we?

Are you planning to visit Euro Scale Modelling 2009, 24 October? It will be held in the Nieuwegein Business Center from 10.00-18.00. As always, I'll be kepping myself busy in the competition area. Look for an orange shirt with "Erik" on the front.

[Martin322]

Hallo Erik,

try this; replace the first x with h

xttp://img35.imageshack.us/i/lvase5.jpg/
xttp://img3.imageshack.us/i/lvase5a.jpg/

Cant make it the 24th, sorry!

Martin.

[SCMc]

Direct links:
Imageshack - lvase5
Imageshack - lvase5a

Steve

[Martin322]

Originally Posted by SCMc

Direct links:

Steve

Cheers Steve!
(I hope to get to the magic "10 posts" mark soon...)

Martin.