Who Shot Down Raymond Collishaw?

[scooterjmuggs]

Hello All;

Can anyone let me know who it was that shot down Raymond Collishaw on June 8th or 9th, 1917 (not sure of which day)? It was the engagement in which he lost Sopwith Triplane No. 5490. Happened near Menin and he was hit from out of the sun by a German Pilot flying an Albatros DIII.

He was so intent upon his chosen victim that he did not see the Albatros in his six! Apparently went down very near his own lines and some startled soldiers were able to rescue him.

Read about the account in his book but he does not give much detail. I would really like to know which pilot was able to shoot him down.

Thanks,

scooterjmuggs

[Gregvan]

Hi There,

According to Mike Westrop's superb A History of No. 10 Squadron RNAS, this happened on 8 June 1917. Quote: "B Flight and C Flights carried out a northern and southern offensive patrol in the afternoon. B Flight encountered and engaged a formation of Albatros scouts which proved to be a trap. Collishaw was fortunate to survive a crash after N5490's controls were shot away when he sprung the trap."

According to Royal Naval Aircraft Serials and Units 1911-1919,Sopwith Triplane N5490 was indeed crashed at Droglandt on 8 June by Collishaw, but the airplane was salvaged and sent to Air Depot Dunkerque (St. Pol), and returned to action with No. 9 Sqn RNAS on 20 July 1917; F/L Whealy claimed two Albatros scouts in it, then it went to No. 1 Sqn where it was flown by FSL RE MacMillan, who claimed an Albatros OOC on 19 September 1917 - but he was forced down and captured the same day, claimed by Vzfw Kosmahl of Jasta 26.

As far as a German claims for Collishaw on 8 June, I'm not sure there's a clear candidate:

Vzflgmstr Bottler (sometimes noted as 'Bossler') of Marine Feld Jasta 1 claimed a Sopwith Triplane (?) north of Warneton, possibly at 1125 hrs.

Offz.Stv. Max Müller of Jasta 28 claimed a Triplane at Quesnoy at about 1910 hrs German time. He wrote in a letter on 9 June: "This is to inform you that I shot down a Triplane yesterday. Again it fell in a thousand pieces."

Oblt. K Mettlich of Jasta 8 claimed two "Sopwiths" at Moorslede at 1420 hrs, but these are generally considered to have been Pups of No. 66 Squadron, which lost two pilots KIA and another wounded (another claim was made by Voigt of Jasta 8). It will be noted that two of the 66 Sqn Pups collided.

On 8 June, FLt. T G Culling of No. 1 Squadron was killed in Triplane N5491 (note the close serial no. to Collishaw's N5490).

Also on 8 June, FSLt. T R Swinburne of No. 1 Naval was KIA in Triplane N6293.

And, FSLt H F Stackard of No. 9 Sqn RNAS was shot up and wounded in Triplane N5451.

Russ Gannon will probably join in on this thread with improved information.

[scooterjmuggs]

Hi Again;

Greg thanks for the reply. I doubt it was any of those German Pilots though. The earliest one that you indicated was after 11AM that day. In his book Collishaw writes:

"I took off from Droglandt at 5 a.m. with a two-flight patrol detailed to cover the area east of Ypres and we had hardly crossed the lines when we ran into a formation of Albatros DIII's. As usual, they were below our altitude and we dived on them, going down from 17,000 feet. I got on the tail of one of them and although the German pilot went into a series of tight turns my Triplane was able to turn even more tightly. It looked like another sure victory and I had just got his tail into my sights and was about to open fire when a devastating stream of bullets smashed into my cockpit. They came from the guns of one of the German fighters who had come at me from out of the sun. His attack left me unscathed but shattered my controls and I was quite helpless".

Since I am sure that the Triplane did not have that kind of endurance (over 6 hours flying time) and this happened quite soon after they took off and crossed the lines (some time just after 5:00a.m.) I don't see how it could be any of the individual German pilots that you proposed. Maybe it was a pilot that did not make a claim for the Triplane.

I know that many say that Collishaw was full of bull sometimes and a storyteller, but I believe he was using his actual combat reports when retelling this one for the book. So I assume the timeline to be basically accurate.

Maybe this will be one of those mysteries that does not have a clear answer, as is the case with a number of Aerial claims from WWI.

Thanks anyway.

scooterjmuggs

[scooterjmuggs]

Hi Again;

After my most recent posting I re-read Greg's response and noticed the following that I missed the first time I read it:

"Quote: "B Flight and C Flights carried out a northern and southern offensive patrol in the afternoon."

In this account from the book on Naval 10, it claims the patrol in question was in the afternoon but in his book "The Black Flight", Collishaw claims it was a early morning patrol.

It is amazing how time skews everything. If Collishaw was infact mistaken on the time of the patrol then I suppose that the claims that Greg outlined could infact be a possible answer. I really have a hard time believing that even Collishaw could be so forgetful of such a traumatic episode. 5a.m. is quite a bit different than an afternoon patrol. I know that if I had been shot down and lived I would remember the story vividly!!

scooterjmuggs out...

[Gregvan]

Hi,

We may never know which Jasta pilot was shooting at Collishaw that day. Mike Westrop's book is pretty authoritative, and is meticulously based on primary documents. For 8 June 1917, he syas:

"A' Flight took off at 04.08, followed by 'C' Flight at 4.10, the two flights carrying out southern and northern o.p.'s over the area from Poelcappelle to Werwicq and Perenchies. No enemy aircraft were encountered. Prewett suffered engine failure in N5372 and damaged the machine when he made a forced landing in a field near the aerodrome.

"At 09.30, B Flight and C Flight were involved in northern and southern o.p's. A 2-seater was observed over St. Julien at 10.15, another 2-seater was seen over Veldhoek at 10.35 and six scouts were seen to the north of Menin with 12 more high above them at 10.45. At 11.45, Page and Alexander attacked an enemy machine which turned beneath them and was soon lost to sight.....Then Mike concludes his account of 8 June with the paragraph I quoted earlier, about Collishaw being lucky to survive a crash in 5490 in an afternoon patrol.

In Volume 10 No. 4 of Over the Front, distinguished historians Stew Taylor and Frank W. "Bill" Bailey produced an excellent article detailing all the significant Sopwith Triplane casualties and their possible German opponents. To summarize: about 10.30 hrs, Culling of Naval 1 was shot down in N5491, probably by Vzfw. Bossler/Bottler of MFJ I. At 1700 hrs, another Naval 1 flight left and Swinburne was killed in N6293. The authors point to Max Mueller of Jasta 28 as the most likely candidate; Mettlich's two claims for "Sopwiths" are matched to the Pups of No. 66 Squadron who collided.
FSL Stackard of Naval 9 was in N5451, and was "hit by flak while under attack by an EA and was forced to land near Dixmuide at 1150 hrs."
The authors make no mention of Collishaw's episode, because he was not a casualty.

That's the best I can do. I would imagine that either no Jasta pilot claimed Collishaw or none received a confirmed claim for him. I could say something here about German over-claiming being less widespread than British, but Russ Gannon would have my head on a plate

[scooterjmuggs]

Thanks for your interest in my post Greg. I really do need to try and purchase more copies of Over the Front Volumes (only have a few issues) and the History of Naval 10. Sounds like great reading and information.

I tend to think that you are correct and no actual claim was made for Collishaw on this day and time.

Do you know if there is a commercially available document or book that lists all German Air Claims for the Great War? It might be a bit dry and lengthy but I would find such information great reading.

I have always had an interest in the details of the great air fights, especially when a top pilot is knocked down!

Thanks again Greg, as always your vast knowledge is greatly appreciated.

scooterjmuggs out...

[Gregvan]

Hi,

Fortunately for us, Norman Franks, Frank W. "Bill" Bailey, and the late Rick Duiven put together exactly the book you're looking for. Most of it was Rick's wonderful work; it won't come cheap, as it's sort of out of print:

Amazon.com: JASTA WAR CHRONOLOGY: A Complete Listing of Claims and Losses, August 1916-November 1918: Norman Franks: Books

It lists every known confirmed claim by Jasta pilots from 24 August 1916 to the end of the war; not only that but casualties, etc too.

Also look for "The Jasta Pilots" by the same authors. If you're into serious research, the Grub Street series of books is vital.

Norman Franks' book "Who Downed the Aces in WWI?" sounds like it might be what you would like too.

[scooterjmuggs]

Hey Greg;

Thanks again. I just might have to purchase the "Jasta War Chronology", expensive or not.

Thanks for the other ideas. I have considered purchasing Who Downed the Aces before but I hadn't heard of the other two releases until this posting.

Great suggestions. Again thanks for your interest in my post.

Boy, Mr. Franks certainly is a prolific writer. I have a number of his other publications and enjoy them all very much. Sure is nice to be able to network with so many authorities on one of my favourite subjects!

Thanks so much Greg.

scooterjmuggs out...

[MilesC]

Try AbeBooks.com, they list books from associated used book stores in the USA and Canada, it starts at $33 US (it'll be more as you're a Canuck): JASTA WAR CHRONOLOGY: A Complete Listing of Claims and Losses, August 1916-November 1918 - AbeBooks

If he was dove on and had his cockpit shattered the Albatross was likely diving steeply on him, it's entirely possible that the German pilot didn't know that he had crippled Ray's aircraft as he was likely past the Triplanes and heading for home in a few seconds.