Man Moment Machine MVR. Let's count the mistakes

[Stephan]

I caught a few. 1. It mentioned Manfred "ordered" a silver victory cup for himself after his 1st victory, when in fact it was Boelke who awarded these to his cubs.

2. Gordon Bowman Jones mentioned Hawker showed Manfred moves he'd never seen before & Manfred could NOT get him off his tail. BS. They circled each other. One could easily say Hawker couldn't get Manfred off his tail. Truth is, they were in a circle. & as to Hawker's "never before seen moves" Manfred mentioned in his diary; My opponent then did a series of silly loops.

3. He never recovered from his head wound & just wasn't the same man. Speculation, & I've read the opposite where he actually did finally get over the vertigo & headaches.


4. Naturally it mentioned him flying too low & too far over enemy territory. Ernst Udet mentioned in his book following Manfred over enemy trenches very low & strafing them. Schoenbeck mentioned in The Aces Talk book, ( Ed Sims), that they flew over enemy lines very frequently.

A neat program in some respects, Albatross spar probs covered & Manfreds 1st encounter with a Sopwith Tripe were pretty cool, but the same old errors seem to die hard.

[FliegerJG1]

Originally Posted by Stephan

I caught a few. 1. It mentioned Manfred "ordered" a silver victory cup for himself after his 1st victory, when in fact it was Boelke who awarded these to his cubs.

The Ehrenbecher was awarded to a pilot after his first victory however Manfred von Richthofen did order a small silver cup of his own after his first victory on 17 September 1916. The cup was about 2 inches high ordered from a Berlin jeweler. He collected these cups for each victory up through the 60th. After number 60, the depleted silver supply in Germany precluded the addition of any more cups.

FliegerJG1

[frontflieger]

Originally Posted by Stephan

... Schoenbeck mentioned in The Aces Talk book, ( Ed Sims), that they flew over enemy lines very frequently.

You're mayby right. But MvR was flying alone, chasing is prey, not seeing that he was too low and too far *behind' enemy lines... As we know: it was one singel shot that killed him. One single shot too much!

Thorsten

[JFM]

Hello,

As some general thoughts (ramblings) regarding Stephan’s No. 4, IMO too much is made of MvR being behind the lines 21 April and how it was a violation of his Air Combat Operations Manual's stipulation that “one should never obstinately stay with an opponent who, through bad shooting or skillful turning, one has been unable to shoot down, when the battle lasts until it is far on the other side and one is alone and faced by a greater number of opponents.”

No question MvR obstinately pursued May. However, had MvR been unable to bring down May because of bad shooting; i.e., poor marksmanship? I concede that despite being a renowned marksman his aim could have been off, but he was dealing with one jammed Maxim and another that fired intermittently, just a few bullets at a time with frequent manual re-cocking—although one could argue the results were the same as poor marksmanship, save for the psychological (“this gun is making it difficult to shoot properly” vs. “I can’t hit the broad side of a barn”).

Had MvR been unable to bring down May because of skillful turning? No; once on the deck May flew a relatively straight flight path. He jinked, but jinking is not skillful turning. It’s not even turning, skilled or otherwise.

Did the battle last until far on the other side? No. Many use this part of the Air Combat Operations Manual to show MvR must have suffered PTSD to go against what he wrote and fly behind the lines in such a manner. However, MvR wrote “far on the other side.” He came down roughly three miles behind the lines—in an airplane, three miles is nothing. It is absolutely not “far” in an airplane with sufficient fuel and a smooth running engine...

…and altitude. I contend MvR’s altitude was a much larger contributing factor to his demise than his distance behind the lines. Let’s say he and May flew at 50 feet AGL (above ground level)—and judging by that Vaux sur Somme steeple they avoided, they were even lower than that (one witness claims May’s wheels touched ground twice). If MvR had been at 50 feet AGL but directly above the lines, would he have been any safer? My speculation is no because he would have still been in range of many, many light caliber weapons. (As an unrelated example, regard Mannock’s fate as he flew low over the lines.) Now, put MvR at 10,000 feet AGL—he would have been out of range of all light caliber weaponry when flying right over the lines or when three miles beyond them. I’m not suggesting that this altitude would have prevented his demise via some other method (scout, heavy caliber AAA), and no question his distance behind the lines was part of the chain of events leading to his death (he had to fly to where he was shot by who shot him, after all), but his low altitude is what brought him in range to be killed in the manner he was, regardless of his distance behind the lines.

While over the lines, was MvR faced by a greater number of opponents—i.e., a la Voss vs No. 56? No. By all accounts, it was just he and May. Brown soon showed up for his single pass—mostly unseen by MvR, I suspect, and at a point closer to the lines than the brickworks—then disappeared from his sight (speculation—can’t say definitively what MvR saw or didn’t see), although if MvR still saw Brown he didn’t even consider him threat enough to break off his chase of May. Beyond that, no other planes. Of the two RAF planes, only Brown “faced” (i.e., potential offensive combat opponent) MvR; May was being chased and hardly a threat. Thus, at worst, MvR faced an equal number of enemy, one vs one, briefly.

We’ll never know MvR’s mindset that day but I speculate he broke off his attack only when his second Maxim jammed. He obviously knew or realized he was behind the lines because he turned back east, but he also obviously knew he was too low because he initiated a climb.

Anyway, I know there are many theories regarding this day (which makes this subject so fascinating and fun to me), but that’s my take on MvR’s supposed violation of the Air Combat Operations Manual.

[GMU]

Originally Posted by Stephan

I caught a few. 1. It mentioned Manfred "ordered" a silver victory cup for himself after his 1st victory, when in fact it was Boelke who awarded these to his cubs.
.

In 1915 Kaiser Wilhelm II set aside personal funds, and commissioned the firm Godet in Berlin, to produce a one litre silver goblet to be awarded to “Den Sieger im Luftkampf” (The victor in Air Combat) after achieving the then rare first air victory.

It is important to remember that the Ehrenbecher was an official award, and neither Manfred von Richthofen, nor Boelcke, could have awarded it. Like any other official award, it was authorized and given by the high authorities. At first, the award documents were signed by the Inspector der Flieger, and then by the Chief of the Air Service. (Most documents are seen signed by either Hoeppner or Thomsen)

As commanding officer of Jasta 2, Boelcke presented the Ehrenbecher to MvR after his first confirmed victory on Sept 17, 1916. Also as commanding officer, MvR must have presented the Ehrenbecher to several of his pilots.

Of course, I am sure MvR loved the idea of the silver cup after every victory, and thus he followed with a private purchase of sliver cups after each of his victories.

George

[GMU]

Regarding Stephan's point 4:

IMHO I believe MvR did not disregard his personal rules. As a matter of fact, as Jim said, he pursued the EA just over 3 miles over enemy territory. I am certainly sure that he had done that on many occasions before. That was part of everyday combat.

Was he 100% focused on May's camel? Yes he was. Had his guns not malfunctioned, it would have been certain that May would have fallen. MvR knew this, and he had surely been in this situation many, many, times. Again, this is not a violation of his rules.

As a matter of fact, he did follow his rules when he realized that it was not worth pursuing May any further into enemy territory with defective guns, so he turned back. He turned back because he followed his rules, not the contrary. That he got hit in the process, that was another thing.

Had he returned to Cappy, it would have been an uneventful sortie,and upon reflecting back on the events of the morning, he would have regretted not shooting down the EA. He would not have ever thought about violating his own rules.

George

[Gregvan]

Hi All,

Boy, JFM and GMU raise some very interesting points. Thanks.

I haven't watched the "Man, Moments, Machines" segment on MvR for awhile. However, I do recall that this fellow named Gordon Bowman Jones wasn't too well-informed (he is an "airshow announcer", or something like that? Maybe his British accent made him sound like an expert). I was approached by the producers to be a commentator/talking head for this program, but demurred because I couldn't make it to California for the taping. Most of the other 'experts' on this particular program, IMHO, were pretty good - I recommended Jon Guttman and Jack Herris. Basically, the producers go with 'experts' who are available, close to the taping location, and will work for cheap!

Anyway, just FYI. Stephan's Point 4. For what it's worth, in that short, superficial interview in The Aces Talk, von Schoenebeck said: "I think the S.E.5 was the best R.F.C. scout of the war. The British scouts could often turn sharply. I wouldn't say, as many claim, that the English were over our lines more. They were, of course, very sporting and we were more military..."

That's it. There are plenty of Anglophiles (there, I said it!) on this forum that would strongly argue that the RFC/RAF WAS operating much more over (and behind) the German lines than vice-versa. There is certainly evidence that German fighters sometimes pursued prey over Allied lines, especially when balloon-busting (of course) and it's obvious that German recon aircraft operated over Allied lines almost daily. You could argue about this forever...

Greg

[Willi Von Klugerman]

I had a near headache after watching M,M,M MVR because they kept showing clips of WWI films and photos but the aircraft in those clips and photos are out of place for the events they mentioned.It fealt like they took any old photo or footage and just put it on there.BTW,if you look fast enough,in the begining of the program,you can notice a man as a rear gunner firing while wearing a white tuxido.That was from the time travel-adventure film Biggles.Which was a bit cheesy but a very fun film and a very cool dogfight scene.

[Stephan]

Right on the money JFM. Onlly thing I would add is one bullet creased May's arm. Bad shooting? Not really.

[Ahnab]

That particular "M, M, M" episode was, IMHO, quite cheesy.

From the looks of it, the events of 21 April were less of a "Man, Machine, Moment" incident, and more of sheer, dumb, luck. MvR no doubt was in the process of "bugging" out after realizing that he couldn't bring down May (as per his own rules of combat conduct) and the "magic bullet" just came out of nowhere and struck him. There have been numerous instances of such things happening in combat where, in a one-in-a-million chance, the odd bullet pops out of nowhere and kills you.

Such are the fortunes of war.

RIP Manfred!