British casualties in Italy

steven brown · 27 March 2009, 09:56 AM

I've been searching this site and my limited book collection for information on the British air units in Italy. A great deal of info is available except on British losses, both personnel and aircraft. I know the British claimed 550, an unlikely number that does however show that there was a lot of combat. One source does mention 12 F2 losses, but that's all I can find. Can anyone shed some light on this? Also the French claims and losses would be nice.

R Gannon · 27 March 2009, 05:34 PM

Steve

You need to get hold of Trevor Henshaws - The Sky their Battlefield (Grub St) - it lists all British losses in all theatre's as well as US air service losses.

Off the cuff they were not heavy - very few falling in air combat to either the Austrians and attached German units - and whilst they may have overclaimed, they did far, far more real damage (hard kills) to both the Austrians & attached German units.

It was an RAF success story.

Cheers Russ

lupodimontenero · 27 March 2009, 10:39 PM

source:William Barker

Inevitably, on so narrow a front as is the Italian one, the squadron of Barker comes into contact with the best pilots in Austria. On 10 May the lieutenants JBGuthrie and HYThornton fall under the blows of Frank Linke-Crawford, the Anglo-Austrian ace.Friedrich Navratil conquered his fifth victory down the ten. W. L. Vorster and the observer sgt. H. T. Frow above Matarello. ( year 1918)

steven brown · 28 March 2009, 01:42 PM

Russ and lupodimontenero,
Thanks for the quick responses. Once again I learn that I need more books.

R Gannon · 29 March 2009, 08:51 PM

Steve

There is a nice listing of 14 & 51 Wings claims and losses in C&C US Vol 24 #4.

"I have stuck my nose in it just now - these wretched English have shot me down twice..."

Hptm Godwin-Brumowski referring to combats on 1 & 4 Feb 18.

Cheers Russ

steven brown · 30 March 2009, 11:43 AM

Thanks for the reference Russ. I have dug up some statistics and it seems that the British dominated their opposition in Italy, the Balkans and the middle east. Jastas 55 and 38 in the Balkans and Palestine only had 25 claims between them while the British fighter flights of 17 and 47 combined to form 150 sq in the Balkans claimed 99 for only 23 losses. One wonders why. Were the British better trained and using better tactics? Interesting stuff.

Romani · 30 March 2009, 01:25 PM

Colour me skeptical, 550 victory claims when the maximum air strength the Austro-Hungarians could muster in all three active fronts at any given time was that same amount? Plus six german Jastas and 2 recon squadrons with 14th Army, and one bombing squadron, about a hundred German airplanes.

To be precise, on October 1917 on the eve of the joint Caporetto offensive there were 150 Austrian aeroplanes and 90 German.

Furthermore, the total victory claims for the entire war of the Italian aces (5 or more victories) were 398, and I have to remind they were more strict in crediting victories than the British

It's true that the A-H airplanes were for the most part mediocre, and even when they had some good fighter types, like their Albatros versions, their armament was lacking in firepower due to the low rate of fire of the Schwarzlose machinegun, this and their general inferiority in numbers explain their modest success at 361 victories for all their aces, even when accounting for balloons and shared victories (wich also applies to the Italians) the figure is not significatively inferior to their opponents, so overall they broke even, though their losses percentages were higher, 38 % KIA for the army air service and 20% KIA for the navy.

It's also true that the Italian fighter pilots were hampered by lack of firepower as nearly all their fighters were armed with a single machinegun.

With that in mind, I can fully agree that the three British squadrons sent to Italy had in the Sopwith Camel with its agility and twin machine guns the best fighter in that front. I also agree that those 3 Camel squadrons were battle hardened units over the Western Front, and probably better than the presumably second rate German Jastas sent to Italy, as I can't remember any well known names right now, but I might be wrong, Hoeppner in his memories claims the enemy was driven back with heavy lossess, though this probably has again more to do with the superior performance and firepower of the Albatros over the ageing Italian Nieuports and SPAD, the Hanriot being excepted.

With all that being said, I think the British Camel squadrons were better, both in airplane quality and pilot experience, than anything or anybody on either side of the trenches at that time, but I don't think they were that good, and that they did considerable overclaiming, I remember once time this subject was discussed on the Aerodrome and somebody said that the Italian pilots were angry at the overly generous both claiming and crediting of the British.

Steven, answering your last question, over the Balkans and Palestine it was simply a matter of the British being more numerous and being better equipped, in my humble opinion, the German air units in those fronts had too much a handicap to be able to shine.

R Gannon · 30 March 2009, 07:39 PM

Steve

You must always allow for Brit overclaiming - which as I stated inumerable times - was because they fought primarily over the oppositions side of lines. Can't say for sure on Balkans but in Palestine the RFC / RAF deffinately dominated from Oct17 onwards. Inflicted far more 'hard kills' than they incurred.

Cheers Russ.

steven brown · 31 March 2009, 09:43 AM

Romani and Russ,
I share the opinion that the Camel claims in Italy represent some substantial overclaiming. But if they were oppossed by only 240 German and Austrian aircraft, a true score between 100 and 150 destoyed and damaged would have made quite an impact. The comment by Godwin-Brumowski quoted by Russ is telling. Presumedly the British were just as aggressive in Italy as they were in France.
The situation in Palestine and the Balkans does seem to have been pretty tough for the Germans. Looking at the British claims against scouts, virtually all are Albatros D111 and D5's, along with a few Siemens-Schuckert D111. All obsolete types by this time cofronting SE5a and F2's. One German pilot had some success in this time frame; Ltn Otto Splitgerber of Jasta 38.
The Austrians army pilots suffering 38% KIA is remarkable. Very heavy losses.

R Gannon · 1 April 2009, 08:23 PM

Steve

I think it would be fair to say that in the Balkans and in Egypt/Palestine the British had the hard time 1916-7 as they had to wage war with obsolete types - the in late 1917 the wheels turned and the Germans had to fight at the disadvantage.

Also there were only three Camel squadron's - that is to say 54 Camels and two squadrons operating some Bristols in Italy.

Cheers Russ