Halberstadt CL II 5720/17 colours

Martin Irvine · 9 March 2009, 09:12 PM

In the Datafile on the Halberstadt CL II, on page 14 and 15, there are 4 photos of 5720/17 in the hands of the 22nd Aero Squadron post-Armistice, (long lived plane, having been built in the summer of 1917!).

I have "Schachtflieger!" and Dan-San has included a 5 view of this plane with yellow wings, top and bottom of both wings, (p.197). However, in the middle photo on page 14 of the Datafile, it appears to me that the tops of both wings are (painted?) a dark colour. (you can make out the end of the upper surface cross on the starboard wing).

Is it possible, as 5720/17 was from the second production batch, ("Schlachtflieger!" p. 141), that the light undersides of the Datafile photos are clear doped linen rather than yellow? And that the dark upper surfaces are the 5 colour printed fabric? The other Datafile photos show an upper surface that could be printed fabric.

I am the first to admit that this is all based on reproduced photos, so I am not looking at primary sources, but has anyone an explanation?

Thanks in advance,

Martin

Martin Irvine · 12 March 2009, 05:17 AM

Whoops - just noticed - make that "upper surface cross on the PORT wing."

Martin

josef scott · 12 March 2009, 05:57 AM

Martin,

This in no way addresses your question, but is a comment on the vagaries of orthochromatic and panchromatic film. I'm sure I'm not the first to notice this, but I've not seen comment elsewhere: if you look at the bottom photo on page 14 of the datafile and the top photo on page 15, the stripes on this aircraft are reversed!

I haven't been able to wrap my head around what that says about the tones of the colours.

Martin Irvine · 12 March 2009, 09:08 AM

There was a thread some time ago about the stripes and the coincidence of there being pan and orthochromatic pictures of the same plane. Given the "3" on the fin and the identical colour edges, I don't think there is any question that these photos are all of the same plane.
You bring up an interesting idea though Josef. I would imagine that, in theory at least, working with both these "opposite" pictures, it would be possible to narrow the shades of the colours somewhat. (I have now idea of how to do that, which is why I ask questions here, rather than provide answers!)

Martin

BLOWHARD · 12 March 2009, 05:54 PM

Ah, you could have searched, but all you would have found was a of bunch of question answered by Dan-San and his (well worth it) color research-
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/ca...5720-17-a.html
I suggest the Dan-San route myself, but I'm sure Dan-San will chime in with his information.

Take it away Dan-San

Dan_San_Abbott · 12 March 2009, 06:57 PM

Gentlemen:
We had all the photos of Halb.Cl.II 5720/17, including the reversed fuselage bands. That one rattled my cage for a while before I realized the was panchromatic film. On page 183 of SCHLACHTFLIEGER !, titled Plate 13 is an explanation of how the color was changed from black and white stripes to the red and yellow bands on the fuselage and yellow wings.
Orthochromatic film is insenstive to red, yellow and black and the appear in dark tones, and some shades are difficult to deferreniate from black.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Martin Irvine · 12 March 2009, 07:12 PM

Thanks for the replies, Blowhard and Dan-San.

Blowhard, I have the 5-view Dan-San was referring to - it is in "Schlachtflieger!" in all it's colourful glory.

And Dan-San I do understand the pan/ortho differences. The stripes aren't the question, it's the wings.

The problem I have is that while the wings are identified as a chrome yellow top and bottom, I think that middle photo on page 14 in the Datafile shows a DARK upper wing surfaces, or at least the portion of the wing leading edges visible. The fact that the black and white of the end of the upper port wing cross is also visible implies that this darkness is not due to some trick of light. If the top and the bottom of the wing are the same colour, this strip might be a little lighter due to the sun catching it, but NOT darker.

So Dan-San, am I missing something?

Thanks in advance,

Martin

josef scott · 12 March 2009, 08:37 PM

I'm not sure how I missed that thread!

OK, now, just to play devil's advocate and satisfy my own curiosity, wouldn't both yellow and red/red-brown photograph as dark tones with orthochromatic film? The bands are quite distinct in all photos.

Martin Irvine · 13 March 2009, 05:02 AM

Depends in how dark the yellow is. The richer ( "chrome"), yellows show dark (Jasta 10 Pfalz DIIIs spring to mind), but the lighter, ("lemon"), yellows show quite light, (Lothar von Ritchofen's DRI wing).

Martin

BLOWHARD · 13 March 2009, 09:47 AM

I was just thinking of Jasta 10 in the shower this morning. You want to see black?

Obviously the nose of this Pfalz is black or a very dark color, right? It's yellow, and there is no doubt about the color. That seemingly dark color is yellow.
About the CL.II wings, keep in mind that just because there is a strong light source on a color it isn't always lighter. It can depend on how transparent the paint is, whether it's reflective at all, and what's under the paint. A strong light source on that plane might show the same paint differently because of what is under that layer of paint.
As far as film, it's not just ortho vs pan, you need to consider exposure, filters used while taking the image, the paper the original photo was printed on, filters used while printing, there are SO many variables! With ortho film, it was common, and still is, to use filters to adjust for color changes. Unless you have years and years of experience in studying old photos, you can't even begin to guess. And certainly you can't say "oh, yellow is always black in ortho film. The results are to varied and subtle to employ a simple rule like that and expect it to be 100% correct.
Listen to Dan-San, he's been looking at these very photos for years and years