Bréguet Aircraft ID challenge #485

[Varese2002]

Bréguet Aircraft ID challenge #485

Another machine in the endless WW1 parade, have a go at this one and give an argument why it is what it is [beware: at least once somewhere deep in the internet this machine is referenced incorrectly ].

Cheers

Kees



The scoreboard at the start of #485 is :

92.0 Varese2002 ¤
60.5 Dave_Kent ¤
51.9 Rbailey ¤
20.3 Cruze
17.5 YavorD
16.65 Froggy
14.3 Aquilius
13.3 Rod Filan
9.6 Flamingo
8.8 richard B
8.1 Breguet
7.7 Dan-San
7.7 EdStevens
7.6 trp81
7.4 JohnMacG
7.3 Patrick
7.1 Colin A. Owers
6.7 Ampovandak
6.1 joegertler
6.0 Eric Goedkoop
5.7 matte_kudasai
5.6 ercoupepilot
5.5 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
5.45 GregE
5.3 Crimso
5.3 Der Grüne Flieger
5.2 Doc
5.2 Gilles
5.1 bshatzer
5.0 Tom L
4.7 dpolglaze
4.4 Ross Moorhouse
4.3 edmondthieffry
4.0 greenknight
3.7 Berman
2.5 Gregoire
2.1 Crankcase
2.0 sobrien
2.0 Rickenbaron
1.7 Kilian
1.6 sergio_vitalio
1.3 Cigogne
1.2 Ransom E. Olds
1.0 airplane176
1.0 AROTH
1.0 austin08
1.0 Brad
1.0 Cliff
1.0 cubsfan4life
1.0 gregorydquist
1.0 Luf-Rick
1.0 Mike Westorp
1.0 paolomiana
1.0 Peter Zambori
1.0 rammjaeger
1.0 SL DIII
0.8 Machinbird
0.8 tbstreet
0.8 toxisch
0.6 Sreiko
0.5 Martin Irvine
0.4 Vilkata
0.3 Nieuport14
0.3 Miroslav Pokorny
0.3 albapfalzd3
0.2 Paul_J._Fisher

The rules :

•The thread title must be "Bréguet's aircraft ID challenge #......"
•The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning and end of each thread so that we know where we are.
•The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.
•The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference).
•Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
(always check the list at earlyaviator.com/br.challenge when in doubt !)
•If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted.
•Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
•To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
•The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
•If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
•The final arbitor in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

[matte_kudasai]

Flight magazine in 1914 calls it "Deperdussin monoplane, total visibility type".
Deperdussin-like fuselage, tailplane, chassis (but with paired wheels instead of single).
But we will beware the warning
There is no Deperdussin-parasol, as I know, and this is modified Dep.
Modified by Belgian designer Vicomte Louis de Monge de Franeau, which participated with this aircraft in the 1914 Concours de Securite.
In the Opdyke's book there is another photo of this machine, showing Dep. fuselage, paired wheels and parasol wing with extended ailerons.

[Breguet]

I wonder where Kees got the idea for this one ?

[Froggy]

Bonjour

I had same idea with the De monge, but the tail looks like different

Untitled Document

Bruno

[Aquilius]

Bruno, in my opinion, this De Monge Parasol-Monoplan has too many similarities to be not related wich the machine Kees offered to us.

Just the question which name it got.
(the designation "Deperdussin" seems more unlikely to me)


Btw, is it from the same "De Monge" who constructed the strange "living wing" for Buscaylet in 1918?
I always thought he was of french origin.


Cheers

Aquilius

[matte_kudasai]

Opdyke's book says that this is the same aircraft, which was at first with standard Dep. tail, but then was rebuilt with tall rectangular balanced rudder.

[Rbailey]

Here is another view.

[Varese2002]

Interesting response on this rarity, designed by the Belgian Pierre Louis de Monge Vicomte de Franeau (1890 - 1977).

This machine which participated in the 1914 Concours de Securité is commonly known as the De Monge 1914 Experimental Parasol. AFAIK the constructor of the machine is not known, designer was De Monge. It is unlikely that Deperdussin built this plane as they seldom (never ?) built designs of others. The best bet could be Voisin, but De Monge could have built his own design himself.

The machine of de Monge did not won any prices in the 1914 Concours, but the construction of the machine can be found in French patent #475663 Dispositif de stabilisation absolue pour aéroplane of De Monge here, dated July 25, 1914.

The drawings of the patent look like this, describing the method of absolute stability by De Monge.







De Monge again surfaced in 1918 with a special machine built by Buscaylet, which was recently described on a question by Breguet (). After the war De Monge remained busy in inventions, designing a super flying boat in 1926 for transatalantic flight (not built) and designing a super racer together with Ettore Bugatti in 1939. This one was actually built and is still in existance.

De Monge was a special character with always a very original view, sometimes not practical, but always 'ahead of his times'.

After this the full point goes to Matte_Kudasai, including the next challenge #486 (we are 14 challenges away from an historic #500 challenge).

Cheers

Kees

[Varese2002]

The scoreboard at the end of #485 is :

92.0 Varese2002 ¤
60.5 Dave_Kent ¤
51.9 Rbailey ¤
20.3 Cruze
17.5 YavorD
16.65 Froggy
14.3 Aquilius
13.3 Rod Filan
9.6 Flamingo
8.8 richard B
8.1 Breguet
7.7 Dan-San
7.7 EdStevens
7.6 trp81
7.4 JohnMacG
7.3 Patrick
7.1 Colin A. Owers
6.7 Ampovandak
6.7 matte_kudasai
6.1 joegertler
6.0 Eric Goedkoop
5.6 ercoupepilot
5.5 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
5.45 GregE
5.3 Crimso
5.3 Der Grüne Flieger
5.2 Doc
5.2 Gilles
5.1 bshatzer
5.0 Tom L
4.7 dpolglaze
4.4 Ross Moorhouse
4.3 edmondthieffry
4.0 greenknight
3.7 Berman
2.5 Gregoire
2.1 Crankcase
2.0 sobrien
2.0 Rickenbaron
1.7 Kilian
1.6 sergio_vitalio
1.3 Cigogne
1.2 Ransom E. Olds
1.0 airplane176
1.0 AROTH
1.0 austin08
1.0 Brad
1.0 Cliff
1.0 cubsfan4life
1.0 gregorydquist
1.0 Luf-Rick
1.0 Mike Westorp
1.0 paolomiana
1.0 Peter Zambori
1.0 rammjaeger
1.0 SL DIII
0.8 Machinbird
0.8 tbstreet
0.8 toxisch
0.6 Sreiko
0.5 Martin Irvine
0.4 Vilkata
0.3 Nieuport14
0.3 Miroslav Pokorny
0.3 albapfalzd3
0.2 Paul_J._Fisher

The rules :

•The thread title must be "Bréguet's aircraft ID challenge #......"
•The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning and end of each thread so that we know where we are.
•The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.
•The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference).
•Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
(always check the list at earlyaviator.com/br.challenge when in doubt !)
•If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted.
•Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
•To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
•The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
•If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
•The final arbitor in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

[matte_kudasai]

Originally Posted by Varese2002

AFAIK the constructor of the machine is not known, designer was De Monge. It is unlikely that Deperdussin built this plane as they seldom (never ?) built designs of others. The best bet could be Voisin, but De Monge could have built his own design himself.

That little article in Opdyke's book give out too many information
I think it's time to write it completely:

De Monge

Although Vicomte Louis de Monge de Franeau was Belgian, his name is included in this book because he was often associated with French design projects: he entered a modified Deperdussin - a parasol - in the 1914 Concours de Securite; it was built by Debrouckere. He financed French designs during and after WWI. He built, and probably designed as well, a series of racers after the War. His 1914 entry in the Concours had been rebuilt the previous year; it appeared with a standard Deperdussin fin and rudder, as well as a tall rectangular affair with a balanced rudder. The undercarriage was fitted with 2 pairs of wheels and a single skid.