German aircraft shot down 1/10/1917 Polygon Wood

[LeicesterTiger]

Hi all, i've been meaning to ask this for a while - on 1st October 1917, Corporal Outhwaite of the 9th Battalion Leicestershire Regiment (presumably using a Lewis gun) shot down a German aircraft at around 10.30am that was strafing British troops from a height of around 200 feet. The aircraft crashed in No Mans Land in (what remained of) Polygon Wood, near Ypres, during the Battle of Passchendaele. Does anyone know which aircraft this was, or could have been?

Thanks, Rob

[Patrick]

The best candidate I could find for this casualty is Ltn d R Ernst Wendler, Staffelkapitän of Jasta 17, based at Wasquehal airfield (Lille). He seemed to be on a run of bad luck, being shot down on September 16, and then again on October 1. He survived the 10/1 crash, but his wounds were serious enough that he had to leave J.17. He recovered to become C.O of Kest 1b. No mention is made of British or French aircraft in his shoot down, so perhaps he was downed by the groundfire you describe. In Julius Buckler's book Malaula! The Battle Cry of Jasta 17, there is a picture of Wendler seated in the cockpit of an Albatros with two rear-view mirrors and wide black-and-white horizonal stripes on the side below the cockpit.

[LeicesterTiger]

Thanks Patrick - however just found another book, this time just on Polygon Wood, and it mentions the aircraft again;

'An enemy aircraft, flying at about two hundred feet, was brought down by ground fire at about 10.30am, landing in No Man's Land, where it and the crew were destroyed by shell fire'

As it says 'crew' instead of pilot, it sounds like a two-seater to me, plus it says they were 'destroyed', so implying killed, rather than seriously wounded.

[R Gannon]

Leistertiger

I'll have a look in my crystal ball & get back to you. Ground straffing not exactly the pass time of Jasta Pilots.

Cheers Russ.

[R Gannon]

Leicestert Tiger

This one is a little problematical. On the face of it there would not seem to be a German 2-seater loss area of Polygon on 1 Oct 17 - certainly nothing in the Kofl 4 return. However this only records instances where there were personel casualties! Downed German aircraft, which did not result in personnel loss, are rarely noted in extant Kofl returns!

Could the date be wrong? Infantry fire did bring down an LVG of KG4/Ks 24 west of Polygon Wood on 26 Sep 17 (G76 crew POW). But as I read it 9 Leicester's - 110 Bde of 37 Div were not in line on that date - Battle of Polygon Wood. Unless in some supporting capacity perhaps? 37 Div were in line at Gheluveldt (to south of Polygon) for Battle Broodsneide on 4 Oct 17.

Hope this is of use.


Cheers Russ

[LeicesterTiger]

Thanks Russ, i'll have another look at my sources later. Just one quick note - by this time, the 110th Brigade, consisting of 6, 7, 8 and 9th Leicesters, were in the 21st Division, having been transferred from the 37th to the 21st in early July 1916

[R Gannon]

Liecester Tiger

Thanks for that re 110 Bde from 37 Div to 21 Div. One of my side projects is building up ORBAT's for Brit / Commonwealth & German divisions for both wars. Keep me informed if you find more data.

Cheers Russ

[R Gannon]

Liecester Tiger

Consulted my Mil Ops France & Belg 1917 a little more carefully. 21 Div was in Polygon Wood on 1 Oct 17. 110 Bde along with 22 Bde of 7 Div were subjected to an attack by German 8th & 45 Res Divs which saw the right of 9 Leicesters give ground - this was restored by a counter-attack led by Lt Col PE Bent who was killed in the process but earned a pothumous VC.

So I don't doubt that Cpl Outhwaite downed a German 2-seater. As noted, surviving German records tend to only note instances where ther were personnel cas. Presumably the crew made it back to German lines.

On this date for example, a Lt Cummings of 1 Sqn crashed a 2-seater at Passchendaele which was witnessed by Capt Rooper & Lt Birkbeck - again same dilemma - but I have no doubt it was an authentic claim. Pointedly there are detailed 2-seater diaries FAA 211 & FAA 235 and these note numerous instances of their aircraft being forced down without crew losses, which are not reflected in the Kofl returns.

However unless a cache of German war diaries are found it is unlikely we will be able to identfy the crew or unit in this instance.

Cheers Russ

Long ago a Chester tiger.