Albatros DVa in the Seattle Museum of Flight

[Der Grüne Flieger]

Hi All,

I am back from the Seattle Museum of Flight. As most already know, it has a wonderful collection of a/c they obtained from the Champlin Museum some years ago. I went to look over the DVa there and to visit the archives. They were very kind to give me unlimited access to the plane and let me in an hour before the place opened to enter the exhibit and take pictures of the a/c.

The a/c was finished by Jim and Zona Appleby to very high standards, but I have questions about how authentic it is. Please, before I get beat up, I don't know who did what on this a/c or why. It may have been made with all the knowledge available at the time. I'm trying to learn, not put anyone down.

So here are the questions and observations as I see them;


horozontal stab is not faired into the fuse. You can also see that the fuse is covered in fabric, I don't think any production a/c were covered in this way, were they?


Lg detail is not correct, should be U shaped, teardroped tube with an addtional steel loop over the axle to catch it if the shock cord breaks. Was there more than one type or detail on the Lg?


It looks to me that modern fittings were use, can anyone comment?


The exhaust mani looks to be incorrect. All that I have seen on the orginal a/c appear to be a continuous curve, this looks more like a "J" shape.

The question I really would like to get answered is this; From an authenticity standpoint, are these mistakes or the best that could be done at the time?

Phil

[sheppo]

Gday Phil

Given the 4 photos you have posted, Id forget about using this plane as reference for anything. No offence to the builder as there wasnt much info around back then to go on.

The tail:
the horns are external on the rudder
fairings for the control wires are wrong (probably better, but wrong)
The stab has too many spar ribs and isnt constructed correctly.
No there was never any fabric covering on the fuselage to my knowledge the fuselage transitions are too sharp, ply will never do that if built as per the original.
U/C:
All wrong...
Nose Bowl.
Modern fittings, external plates wrong
Cabanes
All wrong, modern fittings etc

Looks nice from a way off, but it is by no means an albatros as per the original...Im making some concessions to modernity in my build but Im afraid this one went a bit far (with 20 20 hindsight of course.).
Id say the plane was built with a cosmetic attitude to the original but made extensive use of modern construction techniques and materials. A lot easier to build too I expect.
Phil, was the fuselage built in ply but fabric/glass covered? There seems to be areas on the nose that appear to be fabric strips underneath the skin

chris

[Der Grüne Flieger]

Hey Chris,

It's made from plywood, here is a cockpit picture.



notice the seat



Right side instrumentation, note he used Resorcinol glue, I couldn't be that neat with it.



Phil

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Der Grüne Flieger:
You are correct, Jim and Zona fisished this Albatros D.V that someelse had almost completed. At the time I first saw it Jim's place iit was assembeled and rigged. In my opinion it was an abortion and it had a Gipsy engine in it and Jim was trying to figure out some kind of an exhaust manifold that at leasted looked correct. Jim aske me to do a set of marking drawings for Alb.D.V 2065/17 that was used by Oblt. Richard Flashar and Ltn. Hans Joachim von Hipple. A couple of weeks later I provided to Jim the set of drawings that illustrated the painting scheme and data marking drawings. which identified all the marking details, crosses and patrs identification. When I returned to see the results of the work the "artrist" did, I was apalled. The grey on the fuselage was changed to aluminum, the grey was too "flat" no luster! The crosses were as screwed up as they could be, too thin and the white border was way too narrow. It was a total disappoint to me. I asked Jim not to credit me as the source for the markings data. standing a hundred or so feet away from it, it does not look too bad, 20 feet away, that is another story.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[sheppo]

Well...
Considering the result and the info that was to hand at the time, not a terrible result...from a distance.
The construction is a meld of what many of the existing drawings of the Dva at the time showed and modern techniques. The bulkhead supporting the lower wing spar looks tiny, I have trouble thinking it to be even marginally safe given the D5as reputation.

From the purist perspective of the original, it is really a bit of an abortion.

Sorta like a spanish Me109 with a merlin donk. Looks ok from a few angles but up close its a stinker.

You gotta love the planked seat, what? No ply lying around???
Is it designed for conmfort or what?

chris

[Der Grüne Flieger]

I was really hoping to use this a/c as a good visual reference. Oh well. I guess I have to start planning a trip to see the Stropp. Now,....how do I actually get close to it since it's strung up in the ceiling......I've got it, get a ladder and pose as part of the cleaning crew!

I was excited to first see the a/c, the curator who was accompanying me sat down and let me take photos. As I started to notice the deviations from the original, I wanted to asked her what she thought, but I didn't want to step on anyone's toes. No sense in getting kicked off the exhibit!

Just to be clear, the staff at the museum was among the best and most helpful I have worked with, they took extra time with me and were very accommodating. They have a good archive now and are getting Mr Blume's collection in bits and pieces, so they are a good resource for anyone who wants to do some research.

Dan San Abbott, can you tell me when this a/c was completed?

Regards,
Phil

[baldeagle]

Actually, NASM will sometimes let researchers get close to the airplanes, theoretically it's part of their reason for being. I've wiggled the stick of the Spirit of St. Louis from the top of a man lift while doing research on my Ryan M-1 Mailplane, and have also done a bunch of measuring on the 1909 Wright Flyer, also from a man lift provided by NASM. Not sure if there's room under Stropp for a man lift though, but it seems like it would have to be cleaned occasionally. Also was asked once by one of the curators to crawl over the barrier and show him where the mag switch is in Smith IV, they were helping the USAFM do their SPAD and needed that detail. So it can be done, though it might take some convincing. Also, they probably have some good photos of it taken during the restoration, but might not have all the measurements today's replica builder would want.

[Der Grüne Flieger]

Baldeagle,

It's funny you should say that, as the NASM was the first museum I contacted looking for info on the Stropp. At the time, I already had the Mikesh book and I knew that Richard Horigan had taken part in the restoration. Somewhere on the net, I read he has become a director, so I sent him, the archives department and the curator of the Stropp an email explaining my project and looking for assistance. The only people I heard back from was the archives dept.

They told me they had no photos, they used polaroids which faded to nothing. (I don't believe it) They said they didn't make any blueprints. (I don't believe it) They were happy to sell me Bob Waugh's blueprints, which I bought. They then said that I could visit the a/c but no special access would be granted. I was neatly dumped into a box with little recourse. I then left a voice mail with Mr. Horigan hoping to break the log jam.......I'm still waiting for his reply.

Baldeagle (or anyone else for that matter), if you have some good contacts that I could use, I would be eternally grateful.

Regards,
Phil

[sheppo]

As for polaroids, Id believe it!
As for blueprints, they did make some as I have copies of them!

Mainly for wing ribs and some for fuselage bulkheads. They are at home on big sheets but some are more like sketches over Bobs drawings.

Perhaps they should know that selling bobs copyrighted work is in fact a 'naughty' in anyones books. I bet they dont have any permission to do so...

There are a few drawings available on the albatros cookup web page by mr Garove I believe. These are more like sketches with a few dimensions and the lines from the sketchpad in the background. Not official by any means.

I had to sign a pile of releases to get copies of the NASM archive stuff years ago, so they do/did exist at some point. I no longer have the order sheet with the drawing numbers on them unfortunantly.

Cheers

chris

[Der Grüne Flieger]

Chris,

Not sure if we are on the same page. I bought everthing I could from the NASM, I signed all the release forms. What I got back was Bob's drawings, most of which were in the Mikesh book. Since it's known that there are errors there, I still need to chase them out by building a virtual model in CAD.

It sounds like you may have already done this, at least partially, with your friend David??

P