Lothar Richthofen and Albert Ball

CORVUS · 29 April 2008, 01:36 PM

Hi,

I was just reading about Lothar's fight with Albert Ball in the Red Air Fighter. According to Lothar he fought a Sopwith Triplane that day. He must be right since they flew at each other , each firing a burst and never were they in a turning duel. According to the British, Ball was flying an SE5 that day. So who did Lothar fight and who actually downed Ball. Is this some propaganda drumed up by the German authorities to make Lothar look good. Has this been resolved and if so what really happened ?

Lou

Lyle · 29 April 2008, 01:48 PM

I have heard this controversy--Ball was in an SE5a and the thought is that Lothar, who wasn't that good at identifying enemy aircraft, misidentified it as a triplane because in certain views from behind, the stab can look like a third wing in the middle. Plus the fact that Albert Ball disappeared into a cloud just then and Lothar was unable to see it was a plain old SE. A lot of these details are coming out of the back of me old head, so forgive me for any errors.
It does look like Lothar shot down Ball, though.

theboy · 29 April 2008, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CORVUS

Hi,

I was just reading about Lothar's fight with Albert Ball in the Red Air Fighter. According to Lothar he fought a Sopwith Triplane that day. He must be right since they flew at each other , each firing a burst and never were they in a turning duel. According to the British, Ball was flying an SE5 that day. So who did Lothar fight and who actually downed Ball. Is this some propaganda drumed up by the German authorities to make Lothar look good. Has this been resolved and if so what really happened ?

Lou

It definitely was propaganda.

A triplane was shot down that day in the area and time that Lothar was on patrol(Lothar shot it down).

Nobody really knows what happened to Ball. I would wager Archie or ground fire. He died in the arms of some French girl.

There is no way in hell ANYONE can mistake an SE5 from a triplane, even if the SE5 was new to the front. (Triplanes were not new, and easy to identify)

You need to keep in mind that Lothar never claimed to shoot down Ball until after the press found out Ball died and made a thing of it a few days later.

Definitely proganda.

CORVUS · 29 April 2008, 07:41 PM

Was Albert Balls body recovered and was there an Autopsy

camelpilot · 29 April 2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CORVUS

Was Albert Balls body recovered and was there an Autopsy

Yes, his body was recovered. Town folk buried him. As for an autopsy, heh I doubt that very much.

Froggy · 30 April 2008, 05:21 AM

Hello

Albert ball is buried in Annoeullin, near Lille, in the middle of a german cemetery, very close to the house where live one of my son-Sometimes i go and visit his grave

Cordialement
Bruno

CORVUS · 30 April 2008, 07:10 AM

So I guess there's no way to find out who might have been flying the Sopwith Triplane that day? Apparently there was one that went missing. It would be interesting to know who he was. Was he an experienced combat pilot. If Lothar did not shoot him down who did ?

frontflieger · 30 April 2008, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camelpilot

Yes, his body was recovered. Town folk buried him. As for an autopsy, heh I doubt that very much.

Hi,

why an autopsy? Ball flew into clouds, fell off the clouds and died in a crash.

In those days it was impossible to orient oneself in clouds.

You can see it in Charly Chaplin's 'Dictator' in the first scenes.

Thorsten

TomVrille · 30 April 2008, 11:21 AM

It seems most likely that Albert Ball was not shot down at all, but became disoriented while flying through heavy cloud cover and crashed to his death. LvR was credited with downing Captain Ball, but his own combat report does not support this theory. He describes a short range one-on-one engagement against a very determined opponent in a triplane, with firing opportunities for both combatants. It is hard to imagine that Ball’s SE5 could be mistaken for a triplane in this scenario.

It is known that Ball was not enthusiastic about the SE5’s performance, and it is thought doubtful that he ever really got the ‘feel’ of the aircraft as he had with his Nieuport. It was very easy to become disoriented in thick clouds, and the perceived attitude of an aircraft could be very different from the actual situation unless a pilot had a good ‘seat’.

Witnesses to Ball’s crash claimed he emerged from low cloud inverted, in a shallow dive with a stopped propeller, at an altitude on the order of 500 feet. Close examination of the wreckage of Ball’s SE5 showed no evidence of any significant bullet or shell damage. Examination of Ball’s body at a German field hospital showed no indication of wounding other than injuries consistent with his crash.

According to The Sky Their Battlefield, there were no triplane losses on 7 May 1917.

Kirk R. Lowry · 30 April 2008, 12:53 PM

Bonjour!

Frankly, I have never understood why people have difficulty acknowledging that Lothar von Richthofen was responsible for sending down Albert Ball. There were witnesses, British and German, to moments of the event and it would seem to be accepted that the two airmen were actually in combat with each other. Ball crashed, von Richthofen was forced to land.

As it is acknowledged that the two fought, the poor aircraft recognition, a common enough trait, should not be a detemining factor in proving the validity of the claim.

Ball was killed and not able to file a report, von Richthofen survived and filed a claim not knowing initialy who the opponent was. While it is true that German media reported the event, there is nothing surprising in the fact. The death of many celebrated airmen in The Great War was exploited by diseminators of information.

Speculation that Ball became disoriented in cloud is no different than speculation that Voss was attempting to land as was debated in a series of threads recently ... it cannot be proved and is at best an interpretation of known events. Chaz Bowyer and Alex Revell, being responsible writers, have written about the combat, and though both have reservations or doubt of the claim do not outright regard the notion as impossible. It will never be absolutely resolved just what happened, but, following a combat with Lothar von Richthofen, Albert Ball crashed and was killed. There have been many other victories credited to pilots with less evidence of validity than that.

Mes amis ... fire away.
Salut!
Kirk